Poll

Is multizone velocity sensitivity and choke, as supported by other brands, important to you?

Yes - It's critical for Alesis to stay competitive in the E-drum market
Yes - I'm considering another brand due to this limitation
No - I only use single zone cymbals and don't choke much or use VST's anyhow
No - Other (please state in a post)

Author Topic: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support  (Read 6082 times)

Offline Rev2010

** For those unaware what aftertouch is please read below**

**UPDATE - I incorrectly stated that aftertouch is used to detect velocity on multizone cymbals which is incorrect. The part about the choke is correct however. So from this point on the thread is about having Alesis add BOTH of these features, aftertouch for choke and the ability of switch triggers to read the velocity info from the adjacent piezo trigger zone. My apologies for any confusion. I've removed the incorrect info and as is written here it should be clear the other pertinent feature is to have velocity on all cymbal zones**

Simple enough poll. We'd like to gauge a real response here with the possibility of eventually maybe getting Alesis' attention.

Aftertouch is used to send choke information. As a result ALL zones and all cymbals are chokeable on nearly all inputs. Not so on the Alesis since it doesn't recognize aftertouch.

In the end we have kits that only recognize choke on the crash1 and ride inputs but not on any others. We also don't get velocity when trying using multizone cymbals and hitting the edge. Don't believe me? Try it now... crash your 3-zone ride at different velocity hits and watch how the volume of the ride crash is always triggered at the same max velocity (ie. volume).

This can surely be fixed or updated via a firmware revision but Alesis has to know how important it is to it's customers. I love my DM10 Pro kit, I really do... but if I had known of these limitations before buying I honestly would've just went with a Roland or Yamaha kit because to me and my band it's important to have choke on all cymbals and to be able to trigger a larger number of different cymbal sounds without having to A) Spend a few more hundred dollars, and B) Try to cram it all into a small space functionally.

Please vote your opinion.


Rev.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 05:11:24 PM by Hellfire »

Offline Hellfire

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 07:00:12 PM »
Great poll!

I think this one function alone would make the DM10 more of a match to the Roland TD-12 maybe even the TD-20 (I know, I know the DM10 has no PS). I don't know if it is easy as just a firmware update but I would love to see Alesis at least try to implement this function.

BTW, I think making this a sticky for now is a good idea. At least for now.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:02:20 PM by Hellfire »
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 11:03:32 PM »
Yeah, they can definitely do it with firmware as it's all midi programming implementation. All midi is is code, so all they'd need to do is program it up to pay attention to it and respond accordingly.


Rev.

Offline Hellfire

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 07:50:31 AM »
Yeah, they can definitely do it with firmware as it's all midi programming implementation. All midi is is code, so all they'd need to do is program it up to pay attention to it and respond accordingly.


Rev.
Your a most likely right but, that is one hell of a re-write to the firmware. My next statement is not directed at you but the general public who don't know how the DM10 works.
Alesis would need to re write almost the entire firmware to make this happen. It is not as easy as just turning on the aftertouch. They will need to write code on how to handle the zone selection and only adjacent zones could be programed to handle the aftertouch. Next, is aftertouch auto used when selecting a switch zone? If so that might be problematic for people using those zones with foot switches. Would aftertouch only be used for choke settings or (which is what I assume you want Rev.) is it used for dual zone triggering with velocity on a switch as well? That may need to be a switchable parameter because now those two inputs are read together as one and not two separate inputs? Just a few things to think about because it make the interface more difficult to get a round for the standard user.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 08:16:30 AM »
Didn't say it would be easy, but it is something that can be done all in software. As for the footswitch thing you mentioned.... well Roland and Yamaha can do it. So I guess they would emulate what the other companies are doing.

It's not choke I want most, it's full on dual zone with velocity. As you already know dual zone doesn't even work on my DM10 as it always triggers both sounds. Still haven't heard any mention of a fix other than Dan @ Alesis would report this to the programmers after he tested and had the same results.


Rev.

Offline Guinness

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 02:31:25 PM »
Quote from: As defined by another forum...
Velocity is how hard you strike the key. Hit it softly the volume is less. Strike it hard the volume is more. Velocity can be programmed to control other parameters as well. With your guitar sound the velocity likely opens up a filter to make it brighter and twangier.

Aftertouch is when you've already struck the key and still depressed down you can apply more pressure to the key and have it control a variety of effects or parameters. An organ sound may use aftertouch to increase or enable a rotary speaker effect. Saxophone maybe add some growl to it when the key is pushed harder. Vibrato to strings.

I voted yes and no.  Yes, it seems to be a sought after feature.  No, because I don't know what it is.  I've never used aftertouch so my experince with it is nill.  So, I basically don't know what I'm missing.  :)

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 04:21:29 PM »
I voted yes and no.  Yes, it seems to be a sought after feature.  No, because I don't know what it is.  I've never used aftertouch so my experince with it is nill.  So, I basically don't know what I'm missing.  :)

I explained the whole thing in my post LOL. You should never vote no based on not knowing  ;)  Basically think of it like this, you can have twice as many cymbals at half the cost and half the space usage AND you can choke on ALL OF THEM!!! This is of course if you have dual zone cymbals. Being the DM10 Pro Kit comes with a dual zone crash and triple zone ride this applies 100%. And if you add cymbals so long as you bought the crash with choke you have a dual zone capable cymbal. But the limitations of the DM10 don't allow you to use it. With that crash you can trigger two different cymbal sounds (edge and bow) AND choke works with both zones!

I remember your post complaining about how you got the extra crash with choke but couldn't get it to choke (without assigned mute groups). So I think it's fair to say it applies to you.

By the way, I made the poll so that people can change their votes  ;)  If you see what we're all talking about you have the option.


Rev.

Offline Hellfire

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 11:16:51 AM »
Didn't say it would be easy, but it is something that can be done all in software. As for the footswitch thing you mentioned.... well Roland and Yamaha can do it. So I guess they would emulate what the other companies are doing.

It's not choke I want most, it's full on dual zone with velocity. As you already know dual zone doesn't even work on my DM10 as it always triggers both sounds. Still haven't heard any mention of a fix other than Dan @ Alesis would report this to the programmers after he tested and had the same results.


Rev.
Hey Rev,

I don't know if this helps and I know it is not the fix you are looking for when it comes to full on dual zone cymbals but have you had a chance to look at ROB219's topic here:

http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=319.msg4390#msg4390

That resistor might (and I stress might as in maybe I don't know for sure) work to delay the switch just long enough so it doesn't away trigger both zones at the same time. I know it is still a switch and you want velocity out it but, it might be a little closer to what you want without waiting on Alesis. Just a thought.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 01:45:05 PM »
Yeah I'd definitely need velocity. I'm not waiting on Alesis cause I doubt the people running things really care about the company's success in this market. So what I have to do is spend about another $160 or so for another cymbal and mount  :-\


Rev.

Offline Guinness

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 04:21:07 PM »

I explained the whole thing in my post LOL.

I couldn't see the thread until I voted.

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 05:06:24 PM »
Really?? That's weird. I just checked from another PC not signed in and I was able to see the post. Strange.


Rev.

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 08:51:21 PM »
Guys,

I think there's a terminology problem here...

Cymbal choking is indeed a function of aftertouch via midi, but the edge sensing with velocity is not.  You're right in that the switch causes the module to receive a different note number for the edge triggering, and that the velocity is read from the piezo... but that's not aftertouch, strictly speaking midi here.

Also understand that these are two completely different aspects of cymbal performance (choking via aftertouch, and reading the piezo for edge triggering velocity).  And YES, we need 'em.  Badly.

Just hoping to clarify.

Jer
Taye GoKit with Pintech trigger conversions, Hart mesh heads, Zildjian Gen16 AE cymbals, Pintech Nimrods, and various and ever-changing accessories

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 11:09:58 AM »
That's correct. I just lumped it under the same which I shouldn't have. You're right that they would need to program the module to read the velocity info from the piezo trigger on the cymbal.


Rev.

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2010, 06:06:26 AM »
This definitely seems like a much needed feature. I don't own a DM10, but this is actually making me rethink purchasing one, as I tend to choke my cymbals alot. Hmmmm....

Offline Guinness

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 12:41:53 PM »
This definitely seems like a much needed feature. I don't own a DM10, but this is actually making me rethink purchasing one, as I tend to choke my cymbals alot. Hmmmm....

You can choke the ride and one crash.  You can set it up to choke another crash, but it's not simple and not perfect.  And from above, Alesis' choke is not the same as "aftertouch".  For me, Alesis' choke works just fine.

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2010, 12:35:23 PM »
Without knowing much about drums yet, I only presume that the choke function actually sends a midi signal over the jacks that short circuit the tip with the sleeve, or sends a 'volume 0' signal to the brains.
I think if that would be the case, aftertouch will be impossible, as you would want to send an analog signal over a digital 1/0 connection.

I could be wrong here though.

What IS possible, is if Alesis would build a small program (update firmware), that will allow you to set the intensity of the choke.
In some video's of alesis I saw the choke nearly instantly muted the cymbal, which is not really very realistic. On the Roland kits I tried, the choke took too long to realistically be muted.

Alesis needs to create a curve that when cymbals are choked on a low volume note they nearly instantly mute, while when playing very loud, the choke should take longer.
and apart from that, inside the software, create a possibility to set choke shorter or longer, and save that as a preset (or drumset).

That'd be my opinion about it, but like said I know nearly nothing about electronic drums yet.

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2010, 09:56:14 AM »
"I think if that would be the case, aftertouch will be impossible, as you would want to send an analog signal over a digital 1/0 connection."

Roland and Yamaha kits use Aftertouch as do other brands of edrums on the market. Sorry, but the word "impossible" doesn't even belong in this thread  ;) And the triggering is analog, not digital.


Rev.

MicroStudio

  • Guest
Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 06:27:46 PM »
I have a Trigger I/O and my DM10 Studio Kit will be here in OCT some time.

I have Roland CY8, 1 CY5, 1 CY12R/C, 3 PD8

So I should be able to hook all this up dual trigger for each and still have some dual trigger inputs left over.

Where in the manual does it tell you how to dial the inputs from the I/O in?

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 04:41:25 PM »
You should've created a new thread for this rather than posted it here. You'll be able to do dual zone but remember one zone (the edge) will always trigger at maximum velocity with the Trigger IO, you won't get velocity sensitivity on both zones because Alesis units don't recognize aftertouch, hence the reason for my poll.


Rev.

Orangeblood

  • Guest
Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 06:38:51 PM »
Doesn't Alesis already use aftertouch on their keyboards? Or did at one time.

..it's not at all impossible

Offline Rev2010

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 03:17:38 PM »
Yes, they sure do.


Rev.

Re: POLL: Future DM10 firmware update desperately needs aftertouch support
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 02:21:49 PM »
I don't get it... can't the DM10 get hooked up to a VST and record?