Author Topic: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)  (Read 11551 times)

Offline Trondster

Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« on: April 16, 2013, 02:43:26 PM »
How to get a working dual zone (or "second") hi-hat for the Alesis Dm10 or Pearl RedBox

The Dm10 does have sounds in the stock sound set for a second zone hi-hat, in addition to the main hi-hat zone. These sounds are limited, but like the "main" bow hi-hat sounds, they are variable with how hard you strike the trigger and how open the pedal is.

What you need is:
- A dual zone cymbal - preferably piezo/piezo. A Surge two or three zone ride (with a Y splitter) will do nicely.
OR:
- An extra cymbal, plus a TS/TS to TRS Y splitter.

- A MIDI cable.


Setup:
- Press the UTILITY button and select MIDI, then OUT and set MIDI THRU to OFF.
- Connect the MIDI cable between the MIDI OUT and MIDI IN jacks at the back of the module
- Plug the dual zone cymbal (or Y splitter) into an available jack - I use Perc4.
- Set the instruments for both the rim and head for the jack to NONE: Press INST, choose INST, select the instruments (Perc4Hd and Perc4Rim for the Perc4 input) and choose NONE for Instrument.
- Set the MIDI notes for the bell of the cymbal to MIDI note #32 and the bow of the cymbal to MIDI note #46: Press INST, select MIDI, scroll to Perc4Hd and Perc4Rim and set the MIDI notes to 32 and 46.
- Select the desired hi-hat instrument for the hi-hat and play away!

If the bow and ride sounds end up being reversed - either swap the jacks if using a Y splitter or just swap the sent MIDI notes for the two zones.

If you use a Y splitter, just connect the two cables from the Surge three zone ride or the two cymbals to the TS ends of the splitter, and insert the TRS end of the Y splitter into the desired extra jack (the Crash, Ride1 and hi-hat inputs aren't recommended).

To avoid "double" notes when playing, you must make sure that only the hi-hat MIDI notes are received by the module - you do not want the MIDI notes from all the other triggers. The easiest way to do this is to change the MIDI channel - by default the module listens and sends MIDI notes on channel 10. Now we will change the listen MIDI channel to for example channel 11, and change the hi-hat notes to that channel:
- Press the UTILITY button and select MIDI, then INPT and set Drum Chan to 11.
- Press INST, select MIDI, scroll to Hi-Hat, Perc4Hd and Perc4Rim and set MIDI chan to 11 for all three. (Note: Hits on the regular hi-hat will sounds twice - you need to set the same channel for the hi-hat, otherwise will the pedal CC messages not be sent.)

You might find that sounds are cut off when you are hitting one zone and start hitting the other zone - this is due to the mute group assigned to the hi-hat. Try switching the mute group on and off (press INST, choose Hi-hat MORE, OTHR and change between MuteGroup "01" and "OFF"), and see what works best for you - if you use a MuteGroup the sounds will be cut off when hitting other zones and using the pedal, but if you switch it off, the sounds will keep ringing in some scenarios - for example will the splash sounds from the pedal keep ringing when you hit the hi-hat. Try both and see what works best for you and your playing style.

You can use a piezo/switch trigger cymbal too, but it won't work quite as well - a piezo/piezo cymbal is recommended.

Mind you - there aren't many different sounds to choose from, but it's fun nonetheless.. Select different Hi-hats for the main Hi-hat instrument, and listen to the second zone sounds stored for each hi-hat. Some are the same across several hi-hats, and others are quite interesting..

You can also use a second cymbal and set it up to MIDI channel #32 and use it along with the regular hi-hat as a secondary hi-hat - instead of two zones on the same hi-hat you can use this as a "secondary" hi-hat.
If you want to do that, you can use a TS/TS to TRS Y splitter to connect your "regular" hi-hat along with a secondary hi-hat into the extra input jack and then you have two hi-hats controlled from the same hi-hat pedal.
I'd recommend using the extra input for the extra hi-hat too - if you use the main hi-hat input you will get the hi-hat sounds twice when striking the regular hi-hat (once for the hi-hat itself and once for the MIDI signal), but only once if you use the extra input - then it's just the MIDI. :)


The handling from hitting the hi-hat and closing it at the same time seems to work bit better when using the ordinary hi-hat input than when using this MIDI trick. But - still! :D

And - DO remember to press STORE in the Utility menu after switching off the MIDI Thru functionality - otherwise you risk shattering your ear drums the first time you strike the hi-hat to test this. Not pleasant - I've tested it. Twice. ;)
Hit the STORE button when editing the instrument and store your changes to the kit as well - and if you want this functionality for all the kits, you have to edit the MIDI notes and channel for the rim and head (and channel for the hihat) and store the changes - for all the kits.


The Dm10 has (as Hellfire uncovered) sounds and functionality for the second zone hi-hat - it's just not available, as he also found that the Hi-hat input jack is hard wired single zone only. Bummer. But - Hellfire found that you can activate the "hidden" second hi-hat sounds by sending those MIDI messages from an external device, for example a Trigger I/O. And thus you can get a dual zone hi-hat from using a dual zone cymbal with a Trigger I/O!
But, I thought - instead of sending the MIDI notes from an external MIDI source I can create the desired MIDI notes from another trigger, and just loop them back to the module by MIDI - and it works great - and even better when Hellfire also showed how to get rid of the double triggering by changing the MIDI channel, as well as controlling the ringing by switching off the Mute Group. :)

I have only got the Dm10 with the stock sounds (which are the same as the Pearl RedBox stock sounds) - I do not know if the Blue Jay sounds library for the Dm10 or the various sounds libraries for the Pear RedBox contain sounds for the second hi-hat zone - try it and see if it works! :)


Thanks to Hellfire - the owner of both Hellfire Drums and DMdrummer.com for the the great idea of changing the MIDI channel to avoid extra double triggering and to disable the mute group - for not to mention uncovering the sounds for a dual zone hi-hat in the first place, and how to activate them via MIDI! :)
Also thanks to zendrumdude for the great Dm10 MIDI map.
Read more here:
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=499.0
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=472.0
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=476.0
http://www.hellfiredrums.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/DM10-Midi-Note-Map.pdf
(And probably several other links - this page is a work in progress..)

Have fun, now! 8)


Cheers,
Trondster
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 11:40:13 AM by Trondster »
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Sharkuel

Re: How to (kinda) get a dual zone hihat on the Dm10
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 03:38:51 PM »
So you basically make the DM10 trigger itself. That's genious! :D

But still, and considering that one will use the velocity sensitive swich system created by our dear Hellfire, maybe the swich here works better, to avoid crosstalk and such.

Btw Hellfire, this deserves a sticky. ;)
2Box Brain. Pearl Export Series with cake pan triggers. Jman's converted Zildjian Edge Series Cymbal Set + Alesis Surge Cymbals.

14 inch snare and floortom
10 inch rack tom
12 inch modded floortom
20 inch bassdrum

"Life is short, death is near, but one's word lives forever on.

Offline Hellfire

Re: How to (kinda) get a dual zone hihat on the Dm10
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »
So you basically make the DM10 trigger itself. That's genious! :D

But still, and considering that one will use the velocity sensitive swich system created by our dear Hellfire, maybe the swich here works better, to avoid crosstalk and such.

Btw Hellfire, this deserves a sticky. ;)

And believe or not I made a section in my advanced DM10 manual (over a year ago) for this very trick which makes reference to the velocity switch system. The velocity switch system was no accident. I did it for this very purpose. :D

This section of the advanced DM10 users manual is available to those with "Top Floor Club" access.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 05:00:41 PM »
I hope you don't mind Trondster, but I updated your title so it is more search engine user friendly and made your topic a sticky (because I agree with Sharkuel).  ;)
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Trondster

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 06:06:24 PM »
Quite all right - I will update it tomorrow. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Ukko

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 02:27:03 PM »
Hi Trondster,

I noticed you were once the owner of a Roland VH-11 Hi Hat and returned to using the stock Hi Hat (controller pedal with single zone cymbal).

May i ask what problems the VH-11 had with the DM10, other than it only utilized one zone functionality?

Would this dual trigger method make a DM10 + Trigger I/0 + VH-11 setup with full functionality possible? i.e. VH-11 with edge and bow sounds from the DM10.

Sorry if this has already been asked but i read this when i got up this morning and have been day dreaming all day about the potential awesomeness of being able to use the VH-11 with DM10 to full effect.

cheers
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 02:41:40 PM by Ukko »
2x12", 2x10", 10" Bass DM Pads + 12" Hi Hat, 2x14" Crash, 16" Cymbals, Z-ed Twin Ply Mesh Heads, Trigger I/O, Superior Drummer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Ableton Live

Offline Trondster

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 02:36:51 PM »
Hmm - I guess I could try using the Roland HH as a dual zone trigger - I just didn't think of it - good idea! :)

The main problems with the VH-11 are that the signal from the piezo trigger is too "hot" (but that is easily fixed - I just added a resistor), and even more so that the bow triggers very easily when closing the hi-hat - even with very high threshold values.

Hmm - I might try to give it another go as a dual zone hi-hat - just test it. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2013, 03:21:37 PM »
Hmm - I guess I could try using the Roland HH as a dual zone trigger - I just didn't think of it - good idea! :)

The main problems with the VH-11 are that the signal from the piezo trigger is too "hot" (but that is easily fixed - I just added a resistor), and even more so that the bow triggers very easily when closing the hi-hat - even with very high threshold values.

Hmm - I might try to give it another go as a dual zone hi-hat - just test it. :)

Keep in mind that the edge trigger on the Roland VH-11 is a switch, so you still will not be able to get velocity from the edge of the hi-hats. You can always try to mod the Vh-11 based on the velocity switch idea that I posted about some time ago. The down fall of that is, you have to mod a Vh-11 and that could hurt it's value. Just a thought.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Ukko

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 07:07:28 PM »
Damn, i was hoping the VH-11 was dual piezo.  :'(

I don't suppose the VH-12 or VH-13 are any different, other than size?

EDIT:

Just discovered this thread after a google search, i spose this puts the kibosh on it...

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?33201-Alesis-Trigger-iO-experiences&p=256194#post256194

  Triggering the hats themselves had all of the problems of the other Piezo/Switch cymbals in my tests. In short, the bow was OK. The edge was not.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 11:53:51 PM by Ukko »
2x12", 2x10", 10" Bass DM Pads + 12" Hi Hat, 2x14" Crash, 16" Cymbals, Z-ed Twin Ply Mesh Heads, Trigger I/O, Superior Drummer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Ableton Live

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 09:37:09 PM »
Damn, i was hoping the VH-11 was dual piezo.  :'(

I don't suppose the VH-12 or VH-13 are any different, other than size?

EDIT:

Just discovered this thread after a google search, i spose this puts the kibosh on it...

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?33201-Alesis-Trigger-iO-experiences&p=256194#post256194

 HiHats

    Surprisingly, what I went in thinking would be the hardest to set up was actually not very hard at all.

    Using the VH-11 or the FD-7/CY-12h, there is a simple Calibration routine in the Alesis Trigger iO for the pedal controller. Once initiated, continuous control (variable control) of the hihat pedal was fine. I could hear the variable states of my DFHS hihats. And I could do foot chicks and splashes without any problem at all. Of course, the VH-11 on a true HiHat pedal performed a much better range of "inbetween" states compared to the FD-7. That is something I expected, as it is the same case when using them with the TD-10 TMI.

    Mapping the bow zone required setting two MIDI Notes. When the HiHat pedal is open fully, the Trigger iO sends a new MIDI note with a bow strike. Setting both notes the same was all that was required to make it work well.

    Triggering the hats themselves had all of the problems of the other Piezo/Switch cymbals in my tests. In short, the bow was OK. The edge was not.


And that is why I came up with this:

Alesis DM10, DM8 Velocity Switch Zone Triggering

Unfortunately one of the draw backs of using Alesis edrum modules is the lack of support for velocity from a switch zone. As far as I know the solution above is the only way around it.

BTW, the only dual zone piezo/piezo cymbal triggers on the market are ride cymbals (bow & bell). There is no such production hi-hat trigger that is piezo/piezo. They only route to go is DIY. Either someone can make a piezo/piezo hi-hat trigger or make a piezo/switch trigger based on the topic listed above. That's assuming your looking for a hi-hat that mounts to a hi-hat stand.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Trondster

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 01:54:50 AM »
And - the only input suitable for a piezo/switch cymbal on the trigger I/O is the ride input - Hellfire - please correct me, but isn't it the same with the Dm10?

I'm going to try the VH-11 in the ride jack and report the results. Might take a couple if days, though. ;)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 07:19:08 AM »
And - the only input suitable for a piezo/switch cymbal on the trigger I/O is the ride input - Hellfire - please correct me, but isn't it the same with the Dm10?

As far as the trigger I/O, you are correct. The Trigger I/O can only use a switch type zone on the ride input. On the DM10, that's different. Any input on the DM10 can be used with a piezo/switch trigger. You would just need to change the trigger type in the DM10 settings. Unfortunately the DM10 has the opposite issue of the Trigger I/O. Where the Trigger I/O tends to handle switch zones for a choke, the DM10 handles switch zones like the I/O's ride input (for zone triggering only). The DM10 also has the same flaw as the Trigger I/O when it comes to using a switch trigger zone, no velocity.

A switch zone has no velocity no matter if you use a Trigger I/O or a DM10. So in theory you should be able to get the VH-11 to work with the DM10 (using any input other than the hi-hat input) or Trigger I/O (using the ride input only), but you will not have velocity on the edge zone of the hi-hat since it is a switch zone. Unless of corse you mod your VH-11.

For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 04:05:46 PM »
And - the only input suitable for a piezo/switch cymbal on the trigger I/O is the ride input - Hellfire - please correct me, but isn't it the same with the Dm10?

I'm going to try the VH-11 in the ride jack and report the results. Might take a couple if days, though. ;)

I was just wondering if you had a chance to try it yet? I look forward to your results.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Sharkuel

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 09:32:48 AM »
Bringing back the topic, i am curious of Trondster's research. Did you came up with any result whatsoever?! :)
2Box Brain. Pearl Export Series with cake pan triggers. Jman's converted Zildjian Edge Series Cymbal Set + Alesis Surge Cymbals.

14 inch snare and floortom
10 inch rack tom
12 inch modded floortom
20 inch bassdrum

"Life is short, death is near, but one's word lives forever on.

Offline MechanEvil

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 10:20:02 AM »
If we use any input other than the hi-hat, would we be able to use the foot controller for the hi-hat? I was thinking it wouldn't be possible, since the hi-hat controller is linked to just the hi-hat input.

- Reggae Mangge
Warrior poet, guitar vocalist bassist drummer
... and inventor of the three-legged setup

Offline Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 10:44:52 AM »
If we use any input other than the hi-hat, would we be able to use the foot controller for the hi-hat? I was thinking it wouldn't be possible, since the hi-hat controller is linked to just the hi-hat input.

- Reggae Mangge

It been about a year or more since I actually set up my hi-hat in this manner. With that in mind, I believe the hi-hat controller is linked to the midi notes of the hi-hat and not the physical input. So as long as you have the midi feedback loop set-up (as described above using a single midi cable), you should be able to use any input (other than the hi-hat input itself because you will need dual input) to make this work.

Having velocity on the switch zone is a totally different matter. ;)
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline koala

Re: Dual zone hihat for Dm10 (kinda)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 05:04:21 AM »
Hello Hellfire,

I'm a new happy owner of a DM10 X KIT. By the way is there any possibility to get your advanced manual ?

Thank you