Author Topic: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home  (Read 36392 times)

Offline Gerdy

Hello e-drum colleagues,

I am Gerdy and writing from Germany.
Please excuse my English and used terms I could not get translated.
If you are interested, the whole drum kit setup can be found here:
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=3316.0

I must start by saying the following:
1.) You do not need this, if you can practice without disturbing your neighbours and / or family.
2.) The pedestal is a heavy construction and thereby non-qualified as a transportable “stage pedestal”
3.) I cannot guarantee that it works with your drum rack and bass drum too.
Please understand I had to mention that.


Let’s talk about the impact noise hitting the floor:
With every beat you do on your drum kit, you are producing noise and an additional “shock wave”. You can keep the noise inside a room, but not the impact noise. The “shock wave” moves through the drum rack and hits the floor. Depending on your beat, the drum rack and its material, the “shock wave” is different in its strength.
The bass drum pad produces very strong “shock waves”, because it’s directly on the floor.
And do not think it only concerns the next room beneath your room. The “shock wave” moves along the floor, affects the walls and transfers the “shock wave” up and down.
That’s the reason, why you can “hear” neighbours anywhere inside of a house doing DIY with a hammer.

Initial situation:
I’ am living on the third floor in a nice attic flat. My drum kit is setup in the living room and enables me practicing at anytime. Certainly the families in the second and first floor were informed in advance. (And believe me, I looked into big eyes^^)
After receiving the drum kit I did some tests and asked the families, if they can “hear” me. Yes of course, they did, all of them. Damn, I expected it only a bit on the second floor and not on the first floor too. And believe me the whole house is of heavy building. And here we got the reason. The reinforcement inside the concrete transported the impact noise along the floor into the walls. Especially the bass drum was the heaviest delinquent. It sounded like a rhythmic DIY hammer session to them.
Pads and cymbals disturbed them only a bit. That was unacceptable to all of us.
Should I rent a rehearsal room and spend money to all additional costs coming up with it ?
No, I had to do this with my acoustic drum set and would not have bought an e-drum kit to give up at this point.

The Hellfire-mesh-conversion brought me a small step up. Especially the impact noise caused from the bass drum pad was a bit reduced.

The final solution was a pedestal with impact noise insulation.

Simply adding wooden boards and rubber pads together do not do it.
We need something which decouples our pedestal from the floor.
Unfortunately flying carpets are sold out, so we have to use another trick.
Here it comes: Halved tennis balls
Did you ever try to compress a tennis ball ?

To be honest the pedestal construction using halved tennis balls was not of my idea.
A German e-drummer showed it on Youtube.

How does it work ?
Most of the impact noise is absorbed inside the pedestal construction. The halved tennis balls underneath are decoupling the pedestal from the floor and ensure a small locating surface.

And here is it what it looks like:





Size: 1,62m x 1,52m x 18cm / 64 Inch x 60 Inch x 7 Inches

All materials are from the DIY market…and the tennis balls are stolen from the nearby tennis court. Ok, do not slide into trouble, but you may ask if you could get used tennis balls for low costs. Ebay and some sports shops selling used ones. You do not need high quality.

Let’s look to the material we need:

- Drum mat or carpet on top of the pedestal.
- Old carpet. Later it lies between pedestal and floor.
- 2x wooden boards in your preferred size. 2cm / 0.8 Inch or 1 Inch thickness is ok.
- “Anti-vibration rubber mats”. A special rubber used underneath washing machines.
- Tennis balls. 9 to 10 are ok.
- Power adhesive gel / Power glue gel. The heavy stuff, you know, to build for eternity.

We do not use any nails, screws ore something like that, because metal transports the impact noise. All components are only glued together.

Preparations:

We cut the rubber mats in slices 30cm x 30cm / 12 Inch x 12 Inch.
Afterwards we take 3 of it and glue it together.
That way we build 12 rubber cuboids.

Now we cut the tennis balls into halves. Believe me it is not as simply as you might think.
Take a sharp box cutter to do that. In my case I used 9 tennis balls and got 18 halves.


Setup:

The sketch shows you how I placed the rubber cuboids (black) to the upper wooden board and together with the halved tennis balls (yellow) to the lower wooden board:



The halved tennis balls are glued with its “good side” to the rubber cuboids.
Later on its “open side” is directly on the floor.

And here are the layers how it has to look like:



From up to down:
- Drum mat or carpet
- Wooden board
- 6x rubber cuboids, each with 3 slices
- Wooden board
- 6x rubber cuboids, each with 3 slices
- Halved tennis balls
- Old carpet saving the floor against “foot prints” from the halved tennis balls

I recommend a helping hand.
Remember, everything is only glued together.

After you finished it, you can leave the pedestal opened at its edge to keep the “constructional look”. Or you can add some nice looking cloth around it. Please do not close the edge with wood. The pedestal needs to “breath” and sways also a little bit.

In my case I used the “pipe insulation foam” from the previous post “Drum rack dampening and vibration eliminating to solve trigger problems” > “Dampening the rack pipes”.
It fits without glue and we can remove it at any time for cleaning inside. To go around the corners it only needs a small V-cut. And it works like a light bumper-bar too.




Please take care to ventilate your room over a longer period because of the glue fume.

Our new pedestal is build for eternity. And it carry’s us, our drum kit and the hole family, believe me.
When you enter the pedestal, you can directly feel its first functionality. It bounces and sways a little bit.
And when you start playing with your drum kit, you can directly feel on your own feet its second “shock wave absorbing” functionality.

A small joke at the end:
I build my pedestal during the wintertime and could not ventilate very often.
Because of the surrounding glue fume, I was very close to drum cover Iron Butterfly’s “In A Gadda Da Vida” (my drum teacher in 1980 wanted me to get it right).


Ok, that’s it. Thanks a lot and with kindly regards,
Gerdy

« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 08:09:16 AM by Gerdy »

Offline vaikl

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »
Wow, I'm impressed!

I'm using a much simpler layering with only one wooden board, one of this washing machine rubber mats and as a replacement for the tennis balls I have glued some small segments of Styrofoam isolation for tubes underneath the board.

Works not 100%, my neighbours still hear impacts of the beater and the HH pedal, if I'm putting more power into my play. So I think I'll need some redesign and your input appears just right ;)

Offline Hellfire

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 09:52:02 PM »
That has to be one of the coolest home drum risers I've seen.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 01:15:55 PM »
This has to be the cleanest looking isolation platform I've seen. I've just moved into a concrete and steel apartment building (from having our own house) and I haven't been able to play my drums!

The first few hits of the kick made be realise I need to build something to float the set, and after my initial thoughts I decided to search the net. It seems the tennis ball platform is the best (easiest).

Thanks for sharing your excellent project.

Josh
DM10 Studio with 2 extra 12" cymbals - Roland Mesh - Tama Iron Cobra HP900 double - Steven Slate 3.5 - Resolve A5 Monitors - KRK 8400  - Ibanez H.R. Giger (EMG 81/85)- Dean 7 String Razorback - Line 6 HD500 - Sonar X1 Pro

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 04:34:13 PM »
I used to have a house in Canada with an acoustic set up in the basement so i never had these problems. I recently moved to Berlin to a second floor apartment and have realised that drums can be a loud annoyance for neighbours, but it seems you've got something to solve that, and i think i'll be replicating this very soon!
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Offline einarabelc5

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 02:37:04 PM »
Thank You Gerdy,

For doing this and for pointing me to it.

I'm looking for materials to build it.

Would this work for the anti-vibration mat part?


Store:
http://isolateit.com/vibration-isolating-sheets-pads.html/

Website with technical explanation:

http://www.vibrationsolution.com/what_is_sorbothane.html

Also, How thick are the rubber mat cuboids ONCE they're glued together?

From the store link you can see they're kinda expensive.

Another option is the amazon one:

http://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Cal-Anti-Vibration-Washing-Machine-Mat/dp/B004EF6GOG

Thank You!!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 02:56:11 PM by einarabelc5 »

Offline Trondster

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 03:08:36 PM »
Heh - if those Sorbothane sheets work as advertised, they would be the perfect choice for my rack dampening project - I currently use 2mm craft foam, and the cheapest 12"x12"x1/10" sheets are just as thick - 1/10" = 2.5mm! :)

Well - except that they're quite expensive, of course. ;)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline einarabelc5

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 12:58:36 PM »
I went to Home Depot yesterday. The biggest wood plank they have is 48 inches (4 ft) by 80 inches. Anyone knows where one can get a wider plank?

Lowe's is the exact same thing 4x8...Minimum would have to be 5x7

:(

No luck so far finding anything. Any ideas?

I tried plastic and cutting to size (52in by 64in) and I get "You have exceeded maximum UPS ship able size" 
http://www.boatoutfitters.com/cut-to-size-white-white-king-starboard
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 05:08:32 PM by einarabelc5 »

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 08:04:09 PM »
That is a great idea! German engineering at its best so to speak. But if its just noise insulation your looking for  most 'farm stores' ie; Southern states.Farm and Fleet type places may carry what is known as a stable mat this is about 4 x 6 mat that is highly compressed rubber about 1 1/2 inches thick...it is very stable and flat..might be worth a look see
Back behind the trap after 30 some year absence.. 70's R&R..5-piece Premier acoustic... picked up DM-10 Studio mostly for rehab

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 02:09:42 PM »

Let’s look to the material we need:

- Drum mat or carpet on top of the pedestal.
- Old carpet. Later it lies between pedestal and floor.
- 2x wooden boards in your preferred size. 2cm / 0.8 Inch or 1 Inch thickness is ok.
- “Anti-vibration rubber mats”. A special rubber used underneath washing machines.
- Tennis balls. 9 to 10 are ok.
- Power adhesive gel / Power glue gel. The heavy stuff, you know, to build for eternity.


Gerdy, where do you buy the anti-vibration mats from? Also, what are they called in german? [I'm currently living in Germany but my German vocabulary still needs some work.
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 05:35:22 PM »
Hi Stagecustom,

I bought the anti-vibration mats at a DIY-market called “Hagebaumarkt”.
But they should be available at any DIY markets at the sanitary section of the market.
These mats are nothing special.

The german name is: Anti-Vibrationsmatten für Waschmaschinen
(anti-vibration mats for washing machines)

Size:
60cm x 60cm x 2cm

Price:
about 15 Euros

Material:
Rubber granule, open-pored (recycled rubber)



I bought 9 mats and made 4 small mats 30cm x 30cm out of one (with very sharp box cutter)
= 36 small rubber mats.
I used 3 small rubber mats for each rubber cuboid, all together 12 rubber cuboids.

Offline vaikl

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 11:15:16 PM »
I bought the anti-vibration mats at a DIY-market called “Hagebaumarkt”.
But they should be available at any DIY markets at the sanitary section of the market.

I can confirm that. I've bought the same mats at Hellweg Baumarkt and i know that they also are available at Praktiker, Bauhaus, Hornbach etc.; it's a standard anti-vibration component for washers in Germany ;)

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 06:07:14 AM »
Awesome! Thank you very much to both of you for your help! I've wanted to make some sort of vibration killing pedestal but never got around to it, but now my nieghbours are starting to complain so i have to do something to help keep them happy!  :)
Nochmal, vielen dank!
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 07:36:54 AM »
Hi Stagecustom,

I have read your comment inside Liastrae’s post:

I've been considering using his general idea and creating something of my own. Instead of making a 6'x6' stage, i was thinking on making 3 pieces that would simply sit underneath each leg of the kit [each piece being approx 1' wide and 4' long] and one under the kick [being about 1' wide and 2' long]


I’m honest. I do not think that your solution will work.


Let’s look to your planned construction for the bass drum pad:




Therewith you are creating a big surface that has only dampened the impact noise a little bit.



Another point is that such a construction is unstable and is going to wobble while you are playing.



Let’s look inside the construction I made:



The impact noise is losing its power inside the construction step by step because
-   it is using the 2 boards for deviding the impact noise
-   the impact noise is losing its power on the way to the ground through the rubber cuboids and the free space inside the construction


And this is the surface where the whole construction is in contact with the floor:



The halved tennis balls underneath are decoupling the pedestal from the floor and ensure a small locating surface.
The picture is not exact. I was not able to draft a picture to show the thickness of halfed tennis balls while touching the ground.
The material thickness of tennis balls are about 0,5 cm.
 ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 08:06:45 AM by Gerdy »

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 08:28:32 AM »
Stagecustom,

another point. You mentioned that you are in Germany.
Have you thought about buying the Drum-Tec Absorber Beaters ?
http://www.drum-tec.de/drumtec-soundabsorbingbeater-p-1574.html
Price: 20 Euros

I like them very much. They are very quiet and are working against the rebound from mesh converted bass drum pads. You do not need a protection patch.


Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2012, 11:21:37 AM »
wish I could buy those in the states

unfortunately the triggerball beaters are like 80 bucks with shipping
DM10(BlueJay)/DM8/iO, SD3; Shure SE215, Simmons DA50, Alto ZMX862, Focusrite Scarlett; Tama SpeedCobra, VF 7AN, Roc-N-Soc;
DIY: Tennis Ball Drum Riser, Cymbal Felt Beater, Footswitch Cymbal Choker[url]

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2012, 02:01:49 PM »
Gerdy, you are a very thorough person aren't you!  :P But you are 100% right. My idea was to not make it as tall as your pedastal by leaving out a layer of wood and a couple layers of foam. [mainly due to cost issues] but even if it would only be a few inches off the ground i would still have to make them relatively wide to simply stop the pieces from wabbling. And like you said/explained, i would only be taking away a portion of the vibrations.
Unfortunately i dont have the cash to be able to build a pedestal like you have built, so for now i have ordered mesh heads [one came in already and im very pleased with how much quieter it is!] as well, i had made a trip to Bauhaus today and bought some anti-vibration mats [which were only 10 euros each.  :) so for the time being, i have simply put the mats underneath my kick pad and rack to try and eliminate as much vibration as possible with the money i have.
Thanks for all your help and for the great ideas you have shared with everyone on the forum! I cant wait to see what you come up with next!  :P
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 11:23:53 AM »
Hi all,

Congratulations Gerdy on making a such beautiful and functionnal pedestal, i'm impressed.

I've spent the last few days looking for a solution like this one for my new flat and dur to the other threads I've read I have a few questions :

- Many people say that by cutting tennis balls in half we lose most of their bouncing power (no air inside). Do you agree with that ?
- I get the idea of toping 3 mats on top of each other, but what if i use those 3 mats for the "top floor", then on the bottom "floor" of the pedestal 3 layers of (let's say) gymnastic mat ? It may be lighter, thus absorbing less vibration, but it could also help on a different range of frequencies, or not ?

Thanks in advance for your answer ;)

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 04:19:54 PM »
Hi DaSt and welcome to our forum.

Let me answer your questions.

1.)
Many people say that by cutting tennis balls in half we lose most of their bouncing power (no air inside). Do you agree with that ?

Yes I agree. Physical logic.
But the halfed tennis balls have a complete different function inside the whole construction !!!
I wrote:

How does it work ?
Most of the impact noise is absorbed inside the pedestal construction. The halved tennis balls underneath are decoupling the pedestal from the floor and ensure a small locating surface.


Please go back to page 1 and scroll down to the bottom where I posted 2 additional drafts of the construction showing the functionality and the surface created from the halfed tennis balls.

The bouncing is only caused from the anti vibration mats, which is normal.
And you feel it only by entering the pedestal, also normal.
There is no bouncing during playing drums.


2.)
I get the idea of toping 3 mats on top of each other, but what if i use those 3 mats for the "top floor", then on the bottom "floor" of the pedestal 3 layers of (let's say) gymnastic mat ? It may be lighter, thus absorbing less vibration, but it could also help on a different range of frequencies, or not ?

That sounds very interesting.

But I’m not able to do a remote diagnosis.
I do not know the gymnastic mats (thickness, size, material, damping functionality) you like to use.
Sorry for that answer, but I think you understand that I’m not able to do recommendations about material I do not know / use.

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 06:05:03 AM »
Hi and thanks for you answer,

1- My bad :( i've read it but didn't pay attention enough. Then another related question : if i decide to have a smaller wood plank for my need, i should use less tennis balls right ? Let's say 2 instead of three for each mat square ?

2- Yes i understand that. Anyway i'll use the same mat everywhere since its way heavier and thus will be a best way to cut the waves.

I also looked at your entire setup post (waoow :) ) and also decided to put some foam inside my TD9K rack. I think it will help.

Thanks again =)

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 09:41:26 AM »
Hi DaSt,

the only thing I can say: Try it out.
Put all components together (without clue), jump on it and see how it works.

Your construction with gymnastic mats will be of a higher weight than my construction.
Why saving the amount of halfed tennis balls, even if your construction will be heavier than mine ?


I got 10 used tennis balls from a tennis court.
Found a tennis court in the near via google, phoned with the groundskeeper and drove there after work.



Prize: 5 Euros to their coffee money box
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 09:56:37 AM by Gerdy »

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 09:56:14 AM »
When saying "using the same mat everywhere" i was refering to the mat you use. I already use those for my washing machine. They are way heavier than the gymnastic mat I finally won't be using.

I can afford the tennis ball, I really do :) but i meant les tennis ball = less contact between the pedestal and the floor.

Anyway i'm gonna try that in a few days then come back here and share my experiments :)

Thanks again,

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2012, 01:28:38 PM »
Hey gerdy,
I have a question for you. I am considering copying the awesome project. I wouldnt say I have a problem with noise vibrations as my set is in the conservatory,but I really want to try the system out. firstly, how did the 15hour stint go?
Secondly, I have (at the mo) some wobble with my dm6 rack, its not too bad playing but moves when I wiggle it, which annoys me!!!. Anyway, if I were to copy this system, what are you thoughts on securing the rack to the top layer of the platform. I initially thought about using some kind of u-bolts or exhaust clamps but the use of metal will compromise the vibration damper properties, right?. So, that being said what would your thoughts be on using large cable ties? ( the type used for restraining prisoners). I realise this would not be easy on the dm10 rack without drilling holes in the legs, but my dm6 has long feet that I could go round. My thought were to make a layout on the top during the construction stage and drill some 10mm holes along the feet outline, place cable ties in from underneath and secure on completion?
what do you think, bad idea or good?
Thanks
Alesis DM6 expanded with DM5 module. Alesis DM10 dual zone pads with mesh head upgrade, Roland KD8 kick trigger

Offline Gerdy

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »
Hello James,
your plan in making a pedestal construction that includes additional stability functionality for the drum rack on it sounds very interesting. It is a complete new idea and well thought from you.

But you would always have a “combined” solution without flexibility.
It would be a stationary situation for your drum set.

You would loose the “first” flexibility because your drum rack would always need the pedestal construction underneath it.
If you like to setup your drum set maybe in another location outside of your flat or maybe inside a rehearsal room you always have to carry that pedestal with you. It is very heavy and large in size.

The “second” flexibility would be lost or hard to be integrated if you plan to extend your drum set or if you like to rework it.

I would go for two individual and separate solutions.

You said that your drum set is inside the conservatory. And I saw in addition a picture from your drum set inside your “Rack dampening and cable management project“ post.
Do you really need a pedestal because you have to eleminate impact noise which is disturbing your family or is it the loudness while you are striking on the pads, cymbals and especially on the acoustic cymbal and dampened acoustic hihat ?

Please describe me the kind of noise that we have to eleminate.
Depending on your answer we have to go maybe more into the details.

I have some prepaired solutions for you against “moving and wobbling” drum racks (special drum carpet on plain wooden floors and rack construction) which I would like to work on together with you inside your project post.

And if you say…”it is a stationary situation, the drum set will never be setup at another location, no changes for the future, no drum set extensions planned after the whole project is finished”…then I have an idea for a stationary pedestal drum rack solution (drilled holes inside the pedestal for the rack legs) I would like to discuss you.

I’m looking forward for your answer.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:46:31 PM by Gerdy »

Re: Pedestal with impact noise insulation for practicing at home
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2012, 09:17:08 PM »
Hi Gerdy,
To be honest, I dont have a lot of problems with noise, vibrations etc because of the location of the kit. It would be nice to quieten down the kick but that will come with a dampening beater, insulated kick stand and mesh head change. The main reason for me wanting to have a bash at constructing this is really that I like the idea of it and I may of course eventually move the kit elsewhere. I am hoping to ( after buying some more pipes and clamps off of a member on this forum ;)) convert the kit into some type of four legged system, along with maybe fixing down to a platform to stabilize the kit. I wont build the platform until I have finished with any upgrades or additions and I do not plan to move it for rehersals.
Thanks again for you thoughts
Alesis DM6 expanded with DM5 module. Alesis DM10 dual zone pads with mesh head upgrade, Roland KD8 kick trigger