Author Topic: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.  (Read 5746 times)

Offline rockdude

I'm waiting for an update for the reversed CC-data that Alesis Trigger IO sends. I read somewhere that this was noted as an issue by the Alesis team, but i haven't seen any update on this.

One common problem for many Alesis Trigger IO users is the chick-sound note being triggered in the middle of the cc-range (somewhere around 64).
There is ways to get around it, but it would be nice if it triggered where it's suppose to trigger.

I also wonder why they put it where it is and why they chose to send the cc-data backwards in the first time. Is it because of the current Alesis kits are designed to read cc-data backwards and that the hihats from Alesis kits need the chick note to trigger at cc 64?

A firmware update or alternative would be awesome.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 02:44:14 AM by rockdude »

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 04:37:12 PM »
Am I the only one seeing this as a problem and wondering why Alesis constructed it the way it is?

I thought people would chime in and say "Oh yes I've been waiting for Alesis to correct those issues..those d**n chick notes triggers when my hihat is half open and I have to use extra software to reverse the cc-data back to 'normal' and so forth"
.....I also dream of an answer from Alesis since they're spying on this board  :)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 04:39:10 PM by rockdude »

Offline Marc Bergmueller

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 11:04:14 PM »
  I still haven't got my IO, but this does sound like a problem.  I'm trying to keep this simple, with less programs running but having to use Emonitor and Midi yoke are two more programs to crash.

Offline Hellfire

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 11:20:49 PM »
Am I the only one seeing this as a problem and wondering why Alesis constructed it the way it is?

I thought people would chime in and say "Oh yes I've been waiting for Alesis to correct those issues..those d**n chick notes triggers when my hihat is half open and I have to use extra software to reverse the cc-data back to 'normal' and so forth"
.....I also dream of an answer from Alesis since they're spying on this board  :)
What I would do is email them at support@alesis.com. You might want to mention that it is a question that comes up from time to time. You also, might want to mention the fact that you thought this was a know issue. Keep in mind that they are not nearly as large as Yamaha or Roland  and I don't believe that they have engineers that are just for their drum division. So, updates may take longer.

With that said, I have not noticed this problem, but I don't use my I/O with software. I use it with an SR-18.

Something else I just thought of, you could try contacting them on Twitter or FaceBook. They seem to respond rather quickly on those sites. Just a thought.

(edit: added more)
Another thing I just thought of, why don't you just PM Alesis here on DMdrummer.com?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 11:23:18 PM by Hellfire »
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 12:40:11 AM »
I did send them an email for quite a while ago, but I never got an answer. I might send them another one. The more the merrier  ;D

Thanks for the PM, facebook and twitter suggestions. I'll give that a go too.

Quote
With that said, I have not noticed this problem, but I don't use my I/O with software. I use it with an SR-18.

When using Alesis Trigger IO with a Vsti on a computer this is a big issue if you want a variable hihat with a working chick sound. To get around the problem you have to set the closed and open notes to the same note and the chick note has to be set to a note or channel that's not in use so it doesn't trigger in the middle of the pedal travel. Then you have to use for example eTriggers "pedal down event" and "Reverse CC"-feature. There's a feature called something like "auto pedal down" in BFD2 also....but all those solutions are not as good as something that works out of the box.

*(PM send to Alesis today)
*(Mail send to Alesis support)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:24:30 AM by rockdude »

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 07:29:38 AM »
Here's what I wrote in my mail to Alesis support:

Quote
Hi Alesis!

First I want to say that I'm a proud owner of Alesis Trigger IO.
I have some questions regarding it's features though that bothers me. I wonder why Alesis Trigger IO sends Midi CC backwards? This makes it hard to use with any Virtual Drum instrument on a computer, and mapping a variable hihat is prone to be troublesome. I have to use midi software to reverse the CC-data to be able to use it.

My other question is why the "chick"-note is placed in the middle of the CC-range (somewhere around 64)? This makes the chick note trigger when the pedal is in the middle of its range and not at the bottom as all Vsti expects it to be located. There's lot's of threads about this around the net and Alesis Trigger IO users are forced to simply disable the chick note by setting it to a note or channel not in use.

Will there be a fix, update, patch or feature later on that allows users to adjust those issues. Are you aware of this and working on a solution? Any news would be appreciated, since I think this is a big issue for many users and a show stopper for potential future customers who want to use their drums with Virtual Drum Instruments on a computer and don't want to use 2 or 3 "in between"-programs to sort sort out these issues.

Most people favours to trigger real samples on a computer rather than midi sounds on a drum module nowadays so I think it's important that this works out of the box.

Thanks for a great product.

I received an automatic responce right away telling me that I can expect an answer in 24 to 72 hours. So let's keep our fingers crossed on this one  8)

Offline Hellfire

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 09:57:00 AM »
I did send them an email for quite a while ago, but I never got an answer. I might send them another one. The more the merrier  ;D

Thanks for the PM, facebook and twitter suggestions. I'll give that a go too.

Quote
With that said, I have not noticed this problem, but I don't use my I/O with software. I use it with an SR-18.

When using Alesis Trigger IO with a Vsti on a computer this is a big issue if you want a variable hihat with a working chick sound. To get around the problem you have to set the closed and open notes to the same note and the chick note has to be set to a note or channel that's not in use so it doesn't trigger in the middle of the pedal travel. Then you have to use for example eTriggers "pedal down event" and "Reverse CC"-feature. There's a feature called something like "auto pedal down" in BFD2 also....but all those solutions are not as good as something that works out of the box.

*(PM send to Alesis today)
*(Mail send to Alesis support)
If you don't mind me picking your brain a little? I've used a variable (Roland FD7) pedal before with the trigger I/O. It works with the SR-18 but you don't get the in between sounds of open and closed (because the SR-18 isn't made to use that CC message). With that said, I never got the foot chick until my pedal was all the way down. I guess my question is, does the Trigger I/O generate more than two midi notes with a variable hi-hat controller? I thought it only did an "open note",  "closed note", and sent CC4 message for the variable part. Is my understanding incorrect? I should also state that, out of the box it didn't work for me that way. I had to use the calibration function, found on page 17 of the I/O manual under "X-Talk", before it functioned the way I just described above. After using the calibration I no longer had premature closing or opening of the hi-hat.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 02:29:28 PM »
Quote
If you don't mind me picking your brain a little? I've used a variable (Roland FD7) pedal before with the trigger I/O. It works with the SR-18 but you don't get the in between sounds of open and closed (because the SR-18 isn't made to use that CC message). With that said, I never got the foot chick until my pedal was all the way down. I guess my question is, does the Trigger I/O generate more than two midi notes with a variable hi-hat controller? I thought it only did an "open note",  "closed note", and sent CC4 message for the variable part. Is my understanding incorrect? I should also state that, out of the box it didn't work for me that way. I had to use the calibration function, found on page 17 of the I/O manual under "X-Talk", before it functioned the way I just described above. After using the calibration I no longer had premature closing or opening of the hi-hat.

Pick my brain all you want. It itches in a good way :)
Seriously, I'm glad for your input. You always bring something good to the table.

Neither the automatic or manual calibration function can change the position of the pedal down note. It stays in the middle.

Alesis Trigger IO sends an open note and closed note. In addition you can also assign another midi note number to the pedal down position of the pedal. So, yes three notes can be assigned. It's all described on page 17 in the manual.

Offline Hellfire

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 09:24:23 PM »
Quote
If you don't mind me picking your brain a little? I've used a variable (Roland FD7) pedal before with the trigger I/O. It works with the SR-18 but you don't get the in between sounds of open and closed (because the SR-18 isn't made to use that CC message). With that said, I never got the foot chick until my pedal was all the way down. I guess my question is, does the Trigger I/O generate more than two midi notes with a variable hi-hat controller? I thought it only did an "open note",  "closed note", and sent CC4 message for the variable part. Is my understanding incorrect? I should also state that, out of the box it didn't work for me that way. I had to use the calibration function, found on page 17 of the I/O manual under "X-Talk", before it functioned the way I just described above. After using the calibration I no longer had premature closing or opening of the hi-hat.

Pick my brain all you want. It itches in a good way :)
Seriously, I'm glad for your input. You always bring something good to the table.

Neither the automatic or manual calibration function can change the position of the pedal down note. It stays in the middle.

Alesis Trigger IO sends an open note and closed note. In addition you can also assign another midi note number to the pedal down position of the pedal. So, yes three notes can be assigned. It's all described on page 17 in the manual.
I was wondering what kind of controller are you using?
Something else, are you connecting you HH controller with a TS or TRS cable. I was told to use a TS cable. I don't know why that would matter, but it might be worth a try.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 09:34:48 PM by Hellfire »
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 12:56:40 AM »
Quote
I was wondering what kind of controller are you using?
Something else, are you connecting you HH controller with a TS or TRS cable. I was told to use a TS cable. I don't know why that would matter, but it might be worth a try.

I'm using my diy variable hihat. It's pretty similar to Beatniks design.
http://derksens.com/E-drums/Beatnik/VariableController.htm

I've used both TS and TRS. I also wonder why that would matter.

Unfortunately I think this is issues that only Alesis can fix. Too bad you don't have access to a drum vsti so you could experience the same issues..or do you?

My PM to Alesis has been answered:
Quote
We'll investigate these issues. Thanks for bringing them to our attention.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 01:06:43 AM by rockdude »

Offline audiopat

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
Hi rockdude, I use the trigger IO with edrum monitor and BFD lite... I've noticed it gives a note value of 44 when the pedal is engaged, but it only sends a velocity when the pedal is at 0 CC #4 value, resulting in the foot chick. 
On your other point...I did notice the values being reversed. My solution? I turned the fader around.... 

Offline Hellfire

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 10:30:13 AM »
Quote
I was wondering what kind of controller are you using?
Something else, are you connecting you HH controller with a TS or TRS cable. I was told to use a TS cable. I don't know why that would matter, but it might be worth a try.

I'm using my diy variable hihat. It's pretty similar to Beatniks design.
http://derksens.com/E-drums/Beatnik/VariableController.htm

I've used both TS and TRS. I also wonder why that would matter.

Unfortunately I think this is issues that only Alesis can fix. Too bad you don't have access to a drum vsti so you could experience the same issues..or do you?

My PM to Alesis has been answered:
Quote
We'll investigate these issues. Thanks for bringing them to our attention.
I was wondering if it was a DIY controller. I'm with audiopat, just turn the slider around. That should fix the Reversed CC data. That issue is now fixed.

As for the chick note: I'm going to get a little philosophical here so please don't get mad at me. I was think about this issue. I don't see this as an Alesis "problem". There is no standard on how a variable hi-hat controller should work. Just because we may have used a Roland first doesn't mean that is the way it should be. I also noticed like audiopat the midi note that is generated as soon as you touch the pedal. I wrote to someone close to BFD and asked if these were "problems" and the response was basically that their software can handle any standard HH control signal and thought that the Trigger I/O works just fine with their software. I then was directed to a video on how to set-up a variable hi-hat controller. Here's the link:
http://www.fxpansion.com/fxvideoplayer/videoplayer.php?id=1088.
At least on BFD there is no need for extra software to get the HH controller to work well. Something tell me that it is all about learning the ins and outs of a VST to get it to trigger the way we want. Unfortunately, that is sometimes easier said than done.

What VST are you using? You might want to ask them how to set-up a variable HH controller in their software using an Alesis Trigger I/O. Just a thought. I hope this helps in some way.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 11:24:13 AM »
Hi Audiopat and thanks for the input!

Quote
I use the trigger IO with edrum monitor and BFD lite... I've noticed it gives a note value of 44 when the pedal is engaged, but it only sends a velocity when the pedal is at 0 CC #4 value, resulting in the foot chick.

Are you sure this isn't the closed sound that triggers in the down position? Do you hear a distinct chick sound that differs from a strike with the stick in the down position? I've read about others that believed they had a chick sound, but it later actually appeared to be the usual hihat down sound that triggered when the pedal was pressed down. Do you have the "auto pedal event" feature unchecked in BFD and are you not using the "Auto pedal down" in eDrumMonitor?

I'm guessing that the chick note is programmed to trigger at the point where the open/closed switches is....and that happens to be in the center of the CC4 data. So when using Alesis Trigger IO without a variable hihat, and only triggering open, closed and chick sound it should work perfect....all you would have to do is to listen to where the chick sound appears and secure the hihats down position around that area....but when used with a variable hihat and you want to have the entire cc-range which most vsti requires to achieve all articulations and variations of open and closed sounds, the chick will trigger in the middle.

But I might be wrong of course. If you've really nailed it and got everything working I want to know how you did it :) You would be my hero!

Quote
On your other point...I did notice the values being reversed. My solution? I turned the fader around.... 
Yes that's one way to get around the backward cc-data as well as clicking the checkbox for reverse Midi CC in EdrumMonitor or eTrigger...but it's a workaround and not a fix. By turning fader around CC4=127 is still full open, and 0 is closed when it really should be the other way around.


Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 11:54:23 AM »
Quote
As for the chick note: I'm going to get a little philosophical here so please don't get mad at me. I was think about this issue. I don't see this as an Alesis "problem". There is no standard on how a variable hi-hat controller should work. Just because we may have used a Roland first doesn't mean that is the way it should be. I also noticed like audiopat the midi note that is generated as soon as you touch the pedal. I wrote to someone close to BFD and asked if these were "problems" and the response was basically that their software can handle any standard HH control signal and thought that the Trigger I/O works just fine with their software. I then was directed to a video on how to set-up a variable hi-hat controller. Here's the link:
http://www.fxpansion.com/fxvideoplayer/videoplayer.php?id=1088.
At least on BFD there is no need for extra software to get the HH controller to work well. Something tell me that it is all about learning the ins and outs of a VST to get it to trigger the way we want. Unfortunately, that is sometimes easier said than done.

What VST are you using? You might want to ask them how to set-up a variable HH controller in their software using an Alesis Trigger I/O. Just a thought. I hope this helps in some way.

Thanks for the info Hellfire. I won't get mad, I'm glad you're trying to help.

Of course there's nothing saying that Alesis has done something wrong or that "The Roland way" or any other brand sets the standard. Remember that one of my questions to Alesis was why they made Alesis Trigger IO the way it is and if they are aware of that it might scare potential customers away from it. Most people are lazy. They want to plug it in and get things done with as little tweaking as possible. 

I'm aware of all the tutorials and I've tried my Alesis with both Superior Drummer, Addictive Drums and BFD2. (BFD2 has a very smart way of controlling and manually tweaking where you want your articulations to appear in the cc-range without extra software, and it also has an auto pedal down and splash event)

As I've explained before I can get everything to function, a fully variable hihat with chick sound...but that is with all the workarounds. If the CC wasn't backwards and the chick note didn't trigger in the middle, people could use their Alesis Trigger IO with almost all vsti's without much tweaking and extra software and that's a strong selling point. A patch or something similar that at least made it possible to choose between how Alesis Trigger IO handles the cc-data would be awesome. The same goes for the built in X-talk you've mentioned in another thread. If it would be possible to bypass that (maybe an on and off-setting on each input) you could for example split two stereo inputs and have 4 single zone toms(crashes or whatever) connected to those 2 inputs and all toms could be struck at the same time without any built in crosstalk. That would also make Alesis Trigger IO a very flexible unit that could attract even more customers. And I don't think my suggested features are very hard to implement either.

I just realized I drifted away here and almost wrote a book..sorry  :-X But I see so much potential in this nifty unit from Alesis.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:15:08 PM by rockdude »

Offline rockdude

Re: Reversed CC-data and chick note in the middle of the cc-range.
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 04:42:59 AM »
Some threads from other forums about the chick note and cc-data issues:

http://www.fxpansion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45782&sid=774b9f8619c3535c6137411b00f66a03
http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42636
http://www.fxpansion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40947

In the first thread John Emrich(Fxpansion and active in dmdrummer.com) writes that Alesis has officially logged the issue on their bug report (This was written in February this year).

Another excerpt from that thread tells the following (posted by a user called mcflyer):
Quote
I also talked to Alesis today. I got the tech to hook up a Roland pedal to the trigger I/O (this is because, for some strange reason, they don't have an Alesis pedal available to them). While slowly depressing the pedal, he observe the midi signals being sent in a midi logging application and witnessed the same phenomenon that I have been describing to you, which has him scratching his head, but at least Alesis is now aware of it and will attempt to find out if it can be fixed.

That's six months ago and still no solution from Alesis. I understand that they have their hands full with the release of DM10, but I hope they fix this some day.

There are several other threads too. I'll inform Gastric about this forum too (active at vdrums.com). He's written about these issues in several threads (vdrums, Alesis Trigger IO Yahoo group, XLN Forum etc). Maybe he has something new to bring to the table.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 01:37:24 PM by rockdude »