DM10 + TMC-6 = Dual Zone Hi-Hat!

[zendrumdude]

OK Guys,

It works.  The TMC-6 allows dual zone hh control in the DM10, with velocity sensitivity on both zones.  VERY cool.  Unfortunately, no heel splash (I will continue to work on that, but it doesn't look good), but the hh response is fantastic.  Pedal chick is velocity sensitive too.  If you're wondering, I am using a CY-5 for the pad and an FD-7 for the pedal.

I will report later on cymbal response (multiple chokeable cyms, vel sensitive rim trigs) but I have literally had this thing out of the box about 5 minutes, and I have to teach drum lessons starting in a few...

Jer

[Hellfire]

OK Guys,

It works.  The TMC-6 allows dual zone hh control in the DM10, with velocity sensitivity on both zones.  VERY cool.  Unfortunately, no heel splash (I will continue to work on that, but it doesn't look good), but the hh response is fantastic.  Pedal chick is velocity sensitive too.  If you're wondering, I am using a CY-5 for the pad and an FD-7 for the pedal.

I will report later on cymbal response (multiple chokeable cyms, vel sensitive rim trigs) but I have literally had this thing out of the box about 5 minutes, and I have to teach drum lessons starting in a few...

Jer

Great news! I was able to get dual zone variable from my Trigger I/O as well. However, I was using a piezo/piezo pad (my snare pad). Like you, I couldn't get heel splash to work. I think that is because the DM10 uses a midi note for heel splash and not the CC control. Just a guess though.

What you are reporting is great news for all those edrummer who want to use Roland piezo/switch triggers with their DM10 (+ TMC-6). Thanks for sharing.

[Rev2010]

I'm pretty positive you will have no problem getting all cymbals dual zone with choke and edge velocity sensitivity with the TMC-6 being it supports polyphonic aftertouch. Just too bad the DM10 doesn't support it, would be nice to have this all wrapped up in one unit and to not have to run two power supply's, got a lot of things being powered in my music room 

Thanks for reporting this Jer! If it's not too much trouble I would love to hear the difference between the edge and bow of the dual zone hihat.


Rev.

[zendrumdude]

Nope, no cym chokeability.  I was afraid that might be the case, but I still wanted to try.  The DM10 apparently doesn't recognize aftertouch choking (I think someone already said that... Rev.?) but I was hoping the Roland would be sending a "note off" from the choke circuit.  Not gonna happen.

But, the edges are velocity sensitive, which is pretty darn sweet.  For me, I'm going to run my splash into the DM's Crash input (I don't need 2-zone on my splash!) and run my 2 crashes, ride, and china into the TMC.  If I need to choke, I'll just make sure I play the splash or HH for that "crash".  Kind of a bummer, but still, I'll take edge sensitivity and dual-zones over choke any day.

Jer

[Guinness]

So, I'm trying to understand this...
 
you run a dual zone hh into the TMC-6, then Midi that to the DM10 to get dual zone HH?   Very interesting.

[Rev2010]

Nope, no cym chokeability.  I was afraid that might be the case, but I still wanted to try.  The DM10 apparently doesn't recognize aftertouch choking

You're right, but I would be using it with DFH Superior which does support aftertouch choking so I was thinking about that rather than the DM10 sounds. My bad, but hey... it would work with DFH which is all that matters to me as we don't use the DM10 sounds 


Rev.

[Rev2010]

Hmm... just had a thought... what if it actually wouldn't work with the Surge cymbals? I don't know what Roland uses for the choke in the CY cymbals but maybe it's a different type of sensor than a standard edge switch? I've read that the CY-8 are piezo/switch but what about the choke sensor? Since the Roland's use aftertouch to choke maybe the choke on the CY's are a sensor specifically to send aftertouch? If so then the Surge's wouldn't work anyway I'd gather.


Rev.

[Hellfire]

Hmm... just had a thought... what if it actually wouldn't work with the Surge cymbals? I don't know what Roland uses for the choke in the CY cymbals but maybe it's a different type of sensor than a standard edge switch? I've read that the CY-8 are piezo/switch but what about the choke sensor? Since the Roland's use aftertouch to choke maybe the choke on the CY's are a sensor specifically to send aftertouch? If so then the Surge's wouldn't work anyway I'd gather.


Rev.

It is just a membrane switch. The choke and edge zone use the same switch in the Roland cymbals. aftertouch is controlled all by the module. No special switches needed. If memory serves correctly, aftertouch basically monitors the length of the switch being closed to determine if it is a choke (which it would be closed for a longer period of time) or if it is the zone (short period of time). That is aftertouch in a nutshell.

[zendrumdude]

Answering 3 posts here:

-Yep, this would properly send aftertouch to DFH/BFD/other VSTs.
-Yes, plug 2-zone pad and HH pedal into TMC-6, then midi out to DM10.
-Hellfire is right on about the membrane switch- Surge/SmarTrigger has the same technology as the Roland.

Jer

[zendrumdude]

Hey,

I said I would report on this, and it's taken me this long to finally get it all set up  .  All my drum pads are going to the DM10, all cymbals to the TMC-6, and then via midi to the DM.  I did leave my splash in the DM's Crash input.  I don't need a dual-zone splash, and I did want at least ONE chokeable cymbal.

Well, it works... it works great.  I recommend it; it's worth it just to get dual-zone hh and vel sensitivity on the hh edge and ride bell.  The TMC is overpriced, but cash well spent.  It rocks all over the Trigger I/O.

I was really excited about having all my cymbals be dual-zone (I have 6 Roland CYs) until I actually tried it.  It does work (all cymbals are dual-zone and vel sensitive to boot) but I am very bummed to report that you can't assign a ride sound to the bow of the cymbal and ride your crashes... the DM10 assigns the ride's BELL sound automatically.  What a major bug that is!  Seriously, that needs to be fixed.  I am sure there are LOTS of people who would like a second ride or crash/ride, especially any jazzers. 

One silver lining: I did find a great pair of tip/edge China sounds, so that one's good.

Man, I wish they'd add aftertouch choking too...

Jer

[Hellfire]

Hey,

I said I would report on this, and it's taken me this long to finally get it all set up  .  All my drum pads are going to the DM10, all cymbals to the TMC-6, and then via midi to the DM.  I did leave my splash in the DM's Crash input.  I don't need a dual-zone splash, and I did want at least ONE chokeable cymbal.

Well, it works... it works great.  I recommend it; it's worth it just to get dual-zone hh and vel sensitivity on the hh edge and ride bell.  The TMC is overpriced, but cash well spent.  It rocks all over the Trigger I/O.

I was really excited about having all my cymbals be dual-zone (I have 6 Roland CYs) until I actually tried it.  It does work (all cymbals are dual-zone and vel sensitive to boot) but I am very bummed to report that you can't assign a ride sound to the bow of the cymbal and ride your crashes... the DM10 assigns the ride's BELL sound automatically.  What a major bug that is!  Seriously, that needs to be fixed.  I am sure there are LOTS of people who would like a second ride or crash/ride, especially any jazzers. 

One silver lining: I did find a great pair of tip/edge China sounds, so that one's good.

Man, I wish they'd add aftertouch choking too...

Jer

Thanks for the update. You are not the only one that would like to see aftertouch. I'm with Rev (I believe he said it first) if they were to change just one thing, it should be the inclusion of aftertouch for the cymbals.

[Rev2010]

it's worth it just to get dual-zone hh and vel sensitivity on the hh edge and ride bell.

Hiya Jer. Did you mean the Ride edge? Cause I know the bell is indeed velocity sensitive on the DM10 with Surge ride as it's a piezo. The DM10 has the problem with no velocity sensitivity on switch inputs.

Ah aftertouch.... how badly I wish they would incorporate this! I even emailed Alesis and got a "Thanks for your input" type response. Maybe everyone else here should also email them to let them know how crucial it is to their longterm success in the E-Drum market. I've read many reviews where people returned their Alesis kits after finding out some of these negatives.

And yeah, the ride soundset... why is it locked?? When I had Roland modules it never was. I could assign a ride bell to the snare if I wanted LOL. And the ride edge to whatever else. Even the midi notes of the ride and hihat are locked. It's a bummer to find this all out later. Don't get me wrong, I love my kit and am very happy with it and I've come to grasps with the drawbacks. But I really wish these negatives weren't so as they aren't present on the other popular brands modules.


Rev.

[zendrumdude]

Rev,

Yeah man, you're right on... I like your word "locked."  It is very restrictive!

When I spoke of ride bell velocity, I am using the Roland CY-8, which means 2 things:

1) To hit the "bell", I actually have to hit the edge of the cymbal.  Kinda sucks.
2) No, it's not a piezo/piezo like the Surge, so this is a whole different animal.

I wish Roland (or anyone!) would make the exact same type of cymbal (i.e., CHEAP!) as the CY-8, but have BELL instead of EDGE as the switch output.  Really, how hard would that be?  And given a choice, wouldn't any drummer rather have one bow/edge cym and one bow/bell than have two bow/edges?  I know I would...

Jer

Jer

[Rev2010]

Oh, didn't realize you're using the CY-8. I've owned them in the past. Why not just go with a Ride cymbal? Alesis has the DMpad 14" ride for like $99 and it's triple zone. Just did a quick check and found a new one on EBay for $80:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230502884381&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=L*F%3F&GUID=f2f77c5f1230a0b583b207c2ffb60703&itemid=230502884381&ff4=263602_263622

See, it has the actually bell area in the middle to hit. Then there's also the Roland CY-12R and CY-15R, but the CY12 is $259 so they are a lot more expensive.


Rev.

[Hellfire]

Rev,

Yeah man, you're right on... I like your word "locked."  It is very restrictive!

When I spoke of ride bell velocity, I am using the Roland CY-8, which means 2 things:

1) To hit the "bell", I actually have to hit the edge of the cymbal.  Kinda sucks.
2) No, it's not a piezo/piezo like the Surge, so this is a whole different animal.

I wish Roland (or anyone!) would make the exact same type of cymbal (i.e., CHEAP!) as the CY-8, but have BELL instead of EDGE as the switch output.  Really, how hard would that be?  And given a choice, wouldn't any drummer rather have one bow/edge cym and one bow/bell than have two bow/edges?  I know I would...

Jer

Jer

This is what I think is going on (and Alesis will never confirm this). The DM10 is capable of doing much more than what it does now. I think that is by design. I think Alesis is planning (or were planning, more on this in a second) a higher end module. That is evident with the midi mapping that zendrumdude brought to our attention. It is like the difference between the Roland TD-12 and TD-20. The TD-12 is the same as the TD-20 but Roland locked down some of the features so the TD-12 is not as robust as the TD-20. That is how you get two products from one.

The reason I stated earlier that they were planning (as in the past) is because they now have a different product manager (I'm guess here, is Dan@Alesis now based on this topic: What's next? ) than they did when the DM10 was released. I have a feeling that the vision of the edrum department changed when the product manager changed. Will we see a higher end module? I don't know, I would say no and I base that on a statement that Dan@Alesis stated here:

..Could we design a $2,500 module and build a $7,000 kit around it? Sure, but we have no plans to. We don’t believe that’s what drummers want.

Again, I could be totally wrong here. I'm just basing this off of what I read here.

[zendrumdude]

Well, I have some bad news, some good news, and an announcement stating that more news is forthcoming (but it is unclear whether THAT news will be good or bad.)

Bad news: the Roland TMC6 / FD7 does not work correctly... The pedal chick sound gets "clipped."

Good news: there is a fix.  If you use some sort of midi remapper (I am using the Midi Solutions Event Processor) to scale the pedal response from 0-127 to 0-64, it works beautifully (still no heel splash though.)

Bad News: more $$$, more gear.

More possible news: I am working on using the Event Processor to get the chokes on other cymbals working.  More on that soon. 

Jer

[Rev2010]

Why wouldn't the hihat pedal work correctly? You sure you're doing everything right? You should probably post on the V-Drums forum first before spending more money.

Also, why would you need an event processor to get cymbal chokes working? On every Roland module I had chokes worked flawlessly on all cymbals.


Rev.

[zendrumdude]

Why wouldn't the hihat pedal work correctly? You sure you're doing everything right? You should probably post on the V-Drums forum first before spending more money.

Ummm, yes, Rev, I am sure I am doing everything right.  (And I didn't spend any more money either).  Let me explain:
I did some checking with a midi monitor and found that the DM10's hi-hat pedal range runs from 0-64 on CC04.  The Roland TMC-6's output, however, runs 0-127.  The DM10 does not like the additional range.  The Event Processor scales the range back so it matches.

Also, why would you need an event processor to get cymbal chokes working? On every Roland module I had chokes worked flawlessly on all cymbals.

Yes, they DO work on Roland modules.  Unfortunately (in this case) the DM10 is not a Roland module!

If you've been reading the posts around here about chokes, you know that Alesis does not support aftertouch choking the way Roland does.  Alesis instead uses another midi note number to initiate the choke.  (Thanks, HellFire, for that info!)  In my setup (CY-8 -> TMC-6 -> DM10), choking the cymbal causes the Roland TMC-6 to send an aftertouch message... which the DM10 ignores.  What I am attempting to do with the event processor is to take the aftertouch message as input, alter it in the Event Processor, and output a different midi message that the Alesis WILL recognize.  I think it would be simple to cause it to send that choking note number, but the DM10 only has 2... crash and ride.  I am hoping to be able to choke ALL of my cymbals, so it will need to be a bit more creative a solution.  (I think the technical term is "jury-rigged"  )  I'm guessing the best bet right now is the All Notes Off command (CC123) but we'll see- I'll experiment and report.

Jer

[Hellfire]

Hi Jer (zendrumdude) I hope you don't mind. I fixed your last post so it doesn't look as if you are quoting Rev for the whole post. Makes it a little easier to read.

As far as choke more cymbal, that's easy. You just need to set up mute groups on the Alesis DM10. You can have up to nine. I talk about this trick here:

More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O

Don't let the name fool you. I think most of the info in that topic can be used in some manner for what you are doing. I hope that helps.

[zendrumdude]

Thanks HF.  I did know about that technique.  What I want is several DUAL-ZONE chokeable cyms.  I would prefer the dual-zone feature over chokes if I have to choose... but I still plan on figuring out how to do both!

Jer

[Rev2010]

Sorry Jer I didn't realize you were controlling the DM10 with the TMC-6, that seems rather pointless to me due to the DM10's limitations. Not meaning to offend so please don't take it the wrong way, I just somehow got the impression somewhere that you were using this setup to control VST drum softwares, in which event you would have no problem with the hihat, chokes on all cymbals in the TMC, and full velocity on all cymbal zones with TMC.

Since the DM10 doesn't recognize aftertouch it's a given you won't suddenly get choking in the DM10 by using a TMC-6.

So again, I thought you were controlling something like Superior Drummer. If you absolutely need to use the module then I understand. But if not, forget the modules sounds and use a good drum library, they are miles ahead of module sounds and functionality.

Btw, about 0-64 on the controller... when I record CC04 in Cubase I get the full 0-127 range, it clearly shows it in the event editor.


Rev.

[Hellfire]

Thanks HF.  I did know about that technique.  What I want is several DUAL-ZONE chokeable cyms.  I would prefer the dual-zone feature over chokes if I have to choose... but I still plan on figuring out how to do both!

Jer

Understandable. I can tell you the easiest way to have Dual zone cymbals with the DM10 is to use piezo/piezo triggers but, then you will have no choke. Looking at it from that angle it might be best to just DIY some custom cymbal triggers. If you can figure out how to do both (dual zone & choke) please let us know because that would be awesome!

[zendrumdude]

Hey Rev:

About VSTs: I know what you mean, man.  I have a smokin' MacBook Pro rig for running BFD2 (with almost all of its expansion packs), and yeah, EVERYTHING works in every way... no compromises.  The reason I am trying to do all of this with the DM10 is to streamline my setup.  It sounds like you know your way around VSTs too, so you'll know what I mean: it's so much slicker to plug in the '10 and GO rather than all the computer cabling (which simply doesn't seem roadworthy to me!), the interface, hard drives, the startup/load time, etc. etc. etc. that comes along with laptop performance.  I'd rather save that setup for the studio and the big gigs, and do my weekend warrior stuff on the '10.  But, once you go VSTs, you can't be happy with anything less... so I am trying to get the best of both worlds (as always!)

Anyway, I will continue to report as I experiment with this stuff and hopefully will get it all to work the way I want it.

PS: I DO have everything except chokes (including awesome HH control with heel splashes) working properly through my TrapKat XL, which is such an amazing control surface.  If I can somehow get the chokes from the TMC-6 to work, the TrapKat will work too... it also sends aftertouch chokes.

Jer