Author Topic: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?  (Read 546 times)

ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« on: August 10, 2023, 12:02:15 AM »
Alesis ASP-2 - Universal Keyboard Sustain Pedal

Would this work as a drum trigger ?

My initial tests are telling me no, when I plug it into the extra cymbal port on the back of the module...I get nothing.

Thoughts ?!?!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 12:03:49 AM by boneill »

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2023, 06:57:59 PM »
Alesis ASP-2 - Universal Keyboard Sustain Pedal

Would this work as a drum trigger ?

My initial tests are telling me no, when I plug it into the extra cymbal port on the back of the module...I get nothing.

Thoughts ?!?!

No need to post about different Sustain pedals.
Sustain Pedals will not work for drum triggers in most if not all drum modules Some were also a momentary switch and could be used in a "Footswitch" input on some Drum machines for start/stop.There are modules like Rolands High End modules that can interpret CC along with the MIDI Note sent and used for the Snare , Hi Hat and Ride , but these "Digital" Triggers are expensive and only works with specified modules.DAW's allow you to convert CC to Note to trigger samples.(assign CC 147.. for note on/off).There are a few modules that allow you to change trigger Type to switch and you could use a Pedal like the DM Hat Pedal (open/closed-On/Off-switch Type..there were multiple variations over the years)for use with the Kick drum like the original DM6 module however Switch Type pedals were mainly used for Hi Hats Controllers..(Open/Closed).
If you are splitting a Cymbal input (Piezo/Switch) you'll only be able to get a Bow sound using Piezo trigger Type (Tip)..No Edge..No choke.
The switch (Ring) relies on the Piezo.If you want to add 2 more (single Zone) Triggers you must split a Piezo/Piezo Input.
I replied with more info about using Piezo type Stomp Boxes in your other Topic you posted.

EDIT:
Added Links
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 07:33:23 PM by Chaser »

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2023, 07:58:22 PM »
Chaser (previous reply)....in other forums people have told me that the: "Alesis ASP-1 MKII Universal Sustain Pedal" will work as a drum trigger....any opinion on that ?

Barry

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2023, 12:36:57 AM »
Chaser (previous reply)....in other forums people have told me that the: "Alesis ASP-1 MKII Universal Sustain Pedal" will work as a drum trigger....any opinion on that ?

Barry

What "other Forums"?..list the actual module or example of trigger usage claimed to be compatible...
Yamaha makes drum triggers also..but they aren't compatible with most even tho same components..different wiring.
Cigar Box Guitars are Piezo..basically constructed the same as a drum trigger so they would "work as a drum trigger" also...doesn't mean you are going to see someone build a Drum kit using a dozen Cigar Box Guitars..
Opinions are not facts..everyones got an opinion..facts are facts..
The Facts are the majority of sustain pedals are designed to send ON/OFF momentary messages...value of either 0 or 127.
Expression pedals can send 128 CC values, i.e., 0 to 127.
There are a few Sustain Pedals that are more expensive which have Switch mode and Continuous mode.
The switch-mode turns the pedal into the traditional sustain pedal that acts as ON/OFF switch..0 or 127...continuous mode allows the pedal to send full-range MIDI values from 0-127...not Note ON or OFF.. which is required for drum modules no matter what trigger type Piezo/Piezo or Piezo/Switch.

Sustain Pedals were sometimes used for Hi hat Controllers (years and years..Decades ago..few options available) and Kick drums (No Velocity)..if the input could be set to Switch Type.Some older gear auto identified Piezo or Switch Type...others had a switch..more advanced modules have the option change trigger types.Some of the more advanced modules have features to adapt pedals to triggers.
The STRIKE Multipad has the option to change Trig 1(Kick) input to also use a variable or switch type pedal to trigger samples..along with all 4 pedal inputs can be set to be used for triggering samples using hi hat pedals whether variable or switch.However..Sustain Pedal is different..
"SWITCH MODE:The pedal acts like a momentary switch you must hold the pedal down to keep the sample playing...press down and hold down ..sample starts...when lifting or up..sample stops..press down and hold down restarts.."
While the STRIKE Multipad has these features..the STRIKE Drum Module..like the majority of Drum modules..does not..

In a Switch Type Input (Kick..Older Multipads ) you might get lucky by only pushing the cable in 3/4 so the Tip only connects to the ring
otherwise usually you might get it to trigger only once if pushed in all the way and the module recognized a voltage change..once.......Example
Any input will trigger once just by inserting a cable while it's on...you are interrupting the voltage present at the input and the firmware interprets as a hit.
Just like plugging a guitar into an amp with the volume up.
You can also use a Sustain Pedal as a trigger on a keyboard or DAW..as long as you change the CC value to 147 (this is the CC for note on/off)

The Alesis Pedal is a cheap simple sustain pedal ..non latching momentary footswitch...with a Polarity switch.
The difference between the Alesis ASP-1 and ASP-1 MKII is the MKII is a Newer Design..the ASP-2 is Piano style..otherwise they are all the same exact pedal of which there are thousands of knock-offs of the same exact design on the market
 
If it were compatible with drum modules/Multipads don't you think Alesis (InMusic)..who offers a Full Line of Electronic Drums..Multipads etc....would mention in the product description.."also for trigger use with all our other drum products"...instead of

"This low-profile portable pedal also features a polarity switch that provides universal compatibility with almost any digital piano, portable keyboard, synthesizer, MIDI controller, or other instrument that requires a non-latching momentary switch."

They would sell thousands just to guitarists alone or solo performers.

I already posted Piezo Stomp Box examples etc and as mentioned in the other posts..you can build/DIY a piezo setup dirt cheap...

EDIT:
Added Links
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 01:25:51 AM by Chaser »

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2023, 09:21:34 PM »
Chaser - thanks for the info.

I watched some YouTube videos about this guy who used a 1/4 splitter from a tom port on the back of his Alesis module. He hooked up a "bonus" cymbal by re-assigning the rim-shot trigger from his high-tom to a cymbal sound and thus ended up with his tom AND a bonus cymbal. The splitter handled both signals that the port would recognize for a tom - one for the head, and one for the rim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_2jRHfZXdk

The brand of splitter I bought is specific for Alesis: https://www.amazon.com/Silverline-Splitters-Compatible-Alesis-V-Drums/dp/B09JNQHNFM?th=1&ie=UTF8&useRedirectOnSuccess=1&ref_=dex_glow_signin&path=%2FSilverline-Splitters-Compatible-Alesis-V-Drums%2Fdp%2FB09JNQHNFM%3Fth%3D1

My plan was to do the same with the Surge modules extra ports (tom/cymbal), since the rest of the kit comes in via a snake cable. And I wanted to use the extra split assigned as foot switch (hit hat closing). The reason I want to do this is because my left foot wants to heel down...I can't seem to help it, so getting a bonus hit-hat trigger from a stomp foot pedal is my goal here.

You probably think I'm nuts, but the video the guy posted is very interesting (I don't really understand why the modules don't have a bunch of extra ports that you can use for whatever you want trigger-wise - cow bell for example).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 09:26:31 PM by boneill »

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2023, 12:45:20 AM »
Chaser - thanks for the info.

I watched some YouTube videos about this guy who used a 1/4 splitter from a tom port on the back of his Alesis module. He hooked up a "bonus" cymbal by re-assigning the rim-shot trigger from his high-tom to a cymbal sound and thus ended up with his tom AND a bonus cymbal. The splitter handled both signals that the port would recognize for a tom - one for the head, and one for the rim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_2jRHfZXdk

The brand of splitter I bought is specific for Alesis: https://www.amazon.com/Silverline-Splitters-Compatible-Alesis-V-Drums/dp/B09JNQHNFM?th=1&ie=UTF8&useRedirectOnSuccess=1&ref_=dex_glow_signin&path=%2FSilverline-Splitters-Compatible-Alesis-V-Drums%2Fdp%2FB09JNQHNFM%3Fth%3D1

My plan was to do the same with the Surge modules extra ports (tom/cymbal), since the rest of the kit comes in via a snake cable. And I wanted to use the extra split assigned as foot switch (hit hat closing). The reason I want to do this is because my left foot wants to heel down...I can't seem to help it, so getting a bonus hit-hat trigger from a stomp foot pedal is my goal here.

You probably think I'm nuts, but the video the guy posted is very interesting (I don't really understand why the modules don't have a bunch of extra ports that you can use for whatever you want trigger-wise - cow bell for example).

The youtuber ..At The Source Studios...is AKA.."SIREN"....he's been doing videos with the STRIKE for years and sharing Kits..changing out kit pieces multiple times.
Trigger splitting has been around since there has been TRS inputs..you need to make sure it's a TRS to TS and split the Toms.Cymbal inputs are Piezo/Switch.I see many just buying a standard HOSA Y cable and wonder why it doesn't work and they trigger the same sample , and that's because it's a TS to (2)TS so you are duplicating the Tip.
You don't need the resistor for Alesis and many other modules..Drum-Tec has been selling for years..that was mainly for specific Roland Modules that required it for the splitter work and had the volume issue..There is also one specifically for DB25 Trigger Harnesses-Drum-Tec....also available on AMAZON (Cheaper).There are numerous companies offering them now..I see in your link the seller advertises as  "Alesis V-Drums"..V-Drums is a Roland Trademark..No such thing as Alesis V-Drums.
I make all my own cables and universal splitter boxes with a 100 ohm switch and a potentiometer (for use with DIY Cymbals etc to cool the signal down if needed) so you just run the normal cable up on the rack and use 2 short TS cables...never needed the 100 ohm , tho it does help delay the signal as splitting a zone when hitting both triggers simultaneously will cancel each other out.
Earlier Alesis Modules..Original DM10..Trigger IO..have a Zone Xtalk feature that eliminated that problem... majority of  drum modules currently on the market don't have that feature..including the STRIKE.

As far as the Hi Hat closing ...there is a way to use a Mono to TS Y cable ..TS to (2)TS with a footswitch and create a drop clutch..it will be a little trickier if using a DB25 trigger harness  but can be done.
You would need an ALL Female TS Y cable..(Not TRS to TS) ..the Controller cable from the harness to the main TS.. and run a standard 1/4" TS cable from the HH pedal to one side of the splitter  and the Foot switch to the other side of the splitter or locate a different switch with a standard 1/4" output and use 2 male TS cables..one from Pedal to one side..one from switch to the other ..or a Male TS to 2 TS Female Y cable (as seen in 1st image) and use a TS Female Coupler to connect to the DB25 harness..etc.there's plenty of ways to go..depends on which you'd rather have,availability.. budget etc.
see this Topic
There have been many designs over the years but that is one of the simplest examples..


EDIT:
Fixed links..image
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 12:02:05 PM by Chaser »

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2023, 02:03:53 PM »
Hi Chaser,

What you describe in the 1st pic is pretty much what I was looking for as the extra hi-hat trigger setup, except something more "barefoot friendly" like the Alesis ASP-1 MKII Universal Sustain Pedal for my heel to stomp on.

I have two of the Silverline Y Cable Drum Splitters Compatible with Alesis V-Drums - Stereo TRS Female to 2X Mono TS Female cables on order, and my plan was to use the pedal above for my heel triggering, plugged into the extra Surge tom port on the back (pedal to the rim shot side of the splitter, with the other side going into the usual extra tom) . I think you're saying it won't work ?

If my plan is all bad can you suggest readily available Amazon parts that will do it ?

Barry

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2023, 02:42:21 PM »
Hi Chaser,

What you describe in the 1st pic is pretty much what I was looking for as the extra hi-hat trigger setup, except something more "barefoot friendly" like the Alesis ASP-1 MKII Universal Sustain Pedal for my heel to stomp on.

I have two of the Silverline Y Cable Drum Splitters Compatible with Alesis V-Drums - Stereo TRS Female to 2X Mono TS Female cables on order, and my plan was to use the pedal above for my heel triggering, plugged into the extra Surge tom port on the back (pedal to the rim shot side of the splitter, with the other side going into the usual extra tom) . I think you're saying it won't work ?

If my plan is all bad can you suggest readily available Amazon parts that will do it ?

Barry

You can't use a footswitch.. be it momentary or latching..as a drum trigger. unless the module has the ability to interpret the Signal and convert it , like the STRIKE Multipad example I gave... ..Piezo..Piezo ..Piezo..

The Drop Clutch setup posted is for use with the Hi hat Controller Input...NOT for Drum Triggering...the latching switch affects the Variable input coming from the Variable Hi Hat pedal.


Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2023, 03:02:31 PM »
Chaser.....how about my plan as described but a standard Alesis kit pedal ? (I do have an extra one)....I could reverse it and maybe adjust the angle so my heel could still be a trigger.

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2023, 04:26:32 PM »
Chaser.....how about my plan as described but a standard Alesis kit pedal ? (I do have an extra one)....I could reverse it and maybe adjust the angle so my heel could still be a trigger.

I don't know what you are referring to by "standard Alesis Kit Pedal" and reverse it.

Piezo..Piezo..Piezo..
I am not going to go back and forth with you on "will this work".."how about this"..what works was in my first post about Piezo Stomp Boxes.
You seem to be stuck on using anything but a Piezo..
Piezos create/send Voltage....
Switches or CC pedals of any kind.."Control" Voltage.
Drum modules interprets Voltage convert to MIDI for triggering..
If you were referring to an extra Hi Hat Pedal.... Switch Type (DMHat-open closed,on/off)..or Variable (Realhat-CC)...we're back to what I posted about switches and CC pedals...Switches..latching or momentary cannot be used for Drum triggers.
A Sustain Pedal is CC..an Expression Pedal is CC...a Variable Hi Hat Pedal is CC...CC = CONTINUOUS CONTROLLER.
None of the Hi Hat pedals will work.Alesis has never produced a Piezo based Kick Pedal other than the Stealth which attached to a standard kick pedal and used a beater.

If You want a standard pedal for triggering..ROLAND KT-9..or KT-10..which are basically high end Piezo Stomp Boxes with Pedal Travel..
You could take an Alesis Hi Hat pedal..Gut it (remove internals..adapt/replace with a Piezo trigger Box) and the pedal top would need to hit/tap the box,,,same with sustain pedal if you want a low profile pedal..Gut it..solder a Piezo to the jack and your foot hitting/tapping it will cause vibrations to be sent to the Piezo which sends voltage.If there isn't room for a small box/enclosure for the Piezo you'll need to place foam in it to keep from damaging the Piezo...Piezo Buzzers are enclosed in a small plastic housing.
Here's an example of a user converting a Roland FD-8 HH Pedal to Piezo..

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2023, 05:20:00 PM »
Ok, you knocked the Piezo aspect of it into my head...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELSVUEuBWjI

This is a piezo trigger to a 1/4 jack...attach something like that to my Alesis pedal and plug the piezo jack into my splitter cable.

Would the Fender switch in your first pic work for my needs ?....it is an on/off though, so not sure.



This is a ready made solution it seems (piezo based): https://www.pintech.com/product/cymbal-repair-kit/

"You could also definitely use it as a trigger to install however you need as it is essentially a piezo disc wired to a jack inside a nice little plastic box."

https://www.amazon.ca/Pintech-Percussion-TC-PC-REPAIR-KIT/dp/B0151851JA/ref=asc_df_B0151851JA/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459481040282&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3013556119401607099&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000685&hvtargid=pla-944026816793&psc=1

« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 06:08:25 PM by boneill »

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 07:24:41 PM »
Ok, you knocked the Piezo aspect of it into my head...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELSVUEuBWjI

This is a piezo trigger to a 1/4 jack...attach something like that to my Alesis pedal and plug the piezo jack into my splitter cable.

I already stated I am not going to do the back and forth....I am not going to go through step by step by step..
You'll have to measure out the space available in whatever you are using for the Trigger.. and figure out/Determine what you need..

Quote
Would the Fender switch in your first pic work for my needs ?....it is an on/off though, so not sure.

IT'S A SWITCH....refer to multiple responses about using a SWITCH

The pic with the Fender SWITCH is for use as a Drop Clutch using a Variable Hi Hat Controller and a Variable Hi Hat Controller Input...NOT A TRIGGER

Quote

This is a ready made solution it seems (piezo based): https://www.pintech.com/product/cymbal-repair-kit/

"You could also definitely use it as a trigger to install however you need as it is essentially a piezo disc wired to a jack inside a nice little plastic box."

https://www.amazon.ca/Pintech-Percussion-TC-PC-REPAIR-KIT/dp/B0151851JA/ref=asc_df_B0151851JA/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459481040282&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3013556119401607099&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000685&hvtargid=pla-944026816793&psc=1

That's a Cymbal repair kit....external mounting..
You'll have to measure out the space available in whatever you are using for the Trigger as you never mentioned or confirmed whatever it is.. and figure out/Determine what you need..
If using a Hi hat Pedal...as stated before you can solder the Piezo to the existing jack...use a Piezo in a smaller Housing Example and use it's connector or clip it off and solder to the existing jack and put a Rubber Bumper on the top pedal or the plunger (depending on where you place the Piezo)..as long as it makes contact with the Piezo.Same if using a low profile pedal  (if spring loaded)..calculate everything and if there is enough room for the bumper to travel up and down to tap the Piezo.

I already posted an example using the ROLAND FD-8 Hi Hat Pedal....not interested in it..search the Web for other ideas..

Good Luck with your project..

EDIT:Fixed Bad Link
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 08:06:27 PM by Chaser »


Offline Chaser


Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2023, 11:20:57 PM »
Ahh...didn't know there was a difference (or issue) with different sizes.

https://www.amazon.ca/BQLZR-Transducer-Microphone-Contact-Acoustic/dp/B01KNYZB9C/ref=sr_1_43?keywords=drum+Piezo&qid=1691897134&sr=8-43

"Product Size:Socket Diameter:6.35mm/0.25inch,Line Length:about 20cm/7.87inch,Patch Diameter:about 27mm/1.06inch"
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 11:28:00 PM by boneill »

Offline Chaser

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2023, 12:12:37 AM »
Ahh...didn't know there was a difference (or issue) with different sizes.

https://www.amazon.ca/BQLZR-Transducer-Microphone-Contact-Acoustic/dp/B01KNYZB9C/ref=sr_1_43?keywords=drum+Piezo&qid=1691897134&sr=8-43

"Product Size:Socket Diameter:6.35mm/0.25inch,Line Length:about 20cm/7.87inch,Patch Diameter:about 27mm/1.06inch"

Size does matter when using Piezos..it's mainly based on Surface Size..or Chamber size.Drums up to 14" use 27mm and still have a resistor in many..Alesis uses 27mm for both Head and Rim..Roland 27mm for the Head..35mm for the Rim , which is why you'll see splitters using resistors to balance out the VolumeCymbals use a 35mm from around 12-16" Diameter..not many Cymbals on the market that are larger.I have DIY'ed some 24" Rides for Friends and had to step up to 40mm.There are smaller Cymbals like the Alesis 10" which are offset and use a 27mm..but it's placed in front instead of towards the back.
If a Piezo is too big..it's generally "too Hot" and too sensitive for the module so even the slightest hit or vibration may cause a high velocity hit or false triggering.
A Piezo that is larger than recommended and put into something..like a tom that is rack mounted usually also suffers from cross talk  , so you could hit a cymbal and the tom will trigger or bump the rack and it will trigger etc.It will also depend on how the Piezo is installed/mounted.If you hot glue it down the entire pedal will become a trigger.Rim triggers are typically hot glued solid mounted dead center/bottom so it will pickup the vibration from the Rim going through the Shell..The Head Piezo is on a coupler (Double Sided Foam) the same size as the ceramic so it senses vibrations coming down or around it or a Foam Cone on top of it to receive vibrations directly from the Head.
Using in a pedal with a very small chamber and surface area and being hit by something big..your foot..will have more vibration than the tip of a stick , so if anything you would go smaller if the modules settings can't be set low enough or the Potentiometer can't cool it down enough.The Potentiometer will act as a variable resistor.Guitar pots are usually Alpha for the Volume and Linear for the Tone.Alpha pots ramp up to full at around 3/4 turn while a linear pot will be even from the start to end of the turn.
You''ll know after trying it out if it's too sensitive and picks up foot movement or little bumps while moving your feet around..tapping the cable etc etc.
It will also depend on the surface..carpet or hard floor.
Here's an example of someone building an entire "Low Tech" footboard..and a Roland Module for solo Guitarist

EDIT:
Added links
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 12:58:24 AM by Chaser »

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2023, 06:10:49 PM »
I got one, although too big as per our last messages (I had already ordered it) and it works.....thanks for the piezo education !!!

I'll get the proper size next, and then cannibalize the Alesis ASP-1 MKII pedal....:-)

Barry
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 06:29:23 PM by boneill »

Re: ASP-2 - Keyboard Sustain Pedal - WORK AS A DRUM TRIGGER ?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2023, 07:21:21 PM »
Here is a fully functional re-fit of an otherwise dead Alesis pedal !

Thanks to "Chaser" for the piezo education. I will also post on another pedal build done after this one.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 07:45:26 PM by boneill »