Author Topic: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare  (Read 445 times)

DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« on: June 13, 2022, 06:40:38 AM »
Hi, hoping you can help. I think I must be making a simple mistake.

I have a DM7 set and I am trying to configure the snare rim zone but it doesn't seem to work, no matter what I set, it sounds exactly the same as the snare. Also, I believe "Sn-Sid 1"  is the rim config, if I try to configure this option, it just makes the entire Snare pad make that sound.

I've swapped the snare and crash leads and confirm that the edge of the crash makes a rim shot sound and the plate makes a snare sound, which suggests to me it's not a lead problem.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Thank you

Andy

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 11:10:49 AM »
Hi, hoping you can help. I think I must be making a simple mistake.

I have a DM7 set and I am trying to configure the snare rim zone but it doesn't seem to work, no matter what I set, it sounds exactly the same as the snare. Also, I believe "Sn-Sid 1"  is the rim config, if I try to configure this option, it just makes the entire Snare pad make that sound.

I've swapped the snare and crash leads and confirm that the edge of the crash makes a rim shot sound and the plate makes a snare sound, which suggests to me it's not a lead problem.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Thank you

Andy

The DM7 kits weren't around long.

I don't know which DM7 you have..there were multiple trigger configurations and different modules.
The DM7 USB had single zone toms..dual zone snare and a different module than the "X" Kits
The DM7X had dual zone toms and snare.
The DM7X Session had single zone toms and dual zone snare

All had different trigger configurations..pads/cymbals were different models  from kit to kit ("leftovers" from previously released kits..DM6 etc)
The module for the "X" kits (Medeli DD512/514/516) became the module for the Nitro and the Surge.
You can still see in one pic where it shows Nitro on the front and DM7 on the back.

If it works on a dual zone cymbal I would first check and make sure you don't have a single zone tom being used as the snare..
You could swap toms around if you have a dual zone kit and see if a zone has gone bad.
"Sn-Sid 1"..would be a side stick..

EDIT:
Added Links
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 11:39:16 AM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 12:22:24 PM »
Thank you for the comprehensive reply Chaser.

Judging by your links I've got the DM7 USB. The snare is black and white as pictured in your first link. According to the specs it has triple zone snare. I also think I might be confusing rimshots with a cross stick strike.

With regards to your "Sn-Sid 1" comment, could you explain what is a side stick please?

Thank you
Andy

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 01:18:02 PM »
Thank you for the comprehensive reply Chaser.

Judging by your links I've got the DM7 USB. The snare is black and white as pictured in your first link. According to the specs it has triple zone snare. I also think I might be confusing rimshots with a cross stick strike.

With regards to your "Sn-Sid 1" comment, could you explain what is a side stick please?

Thank you
Andy

Not many of the DM7 USB kits around.

Cross Stick/Side stick same thing...it depends on who you are talking to.
Roland refers to as Cross Stick..Yamaha as Side stick etc and the interpretation of how you lay/position the stick down varies and also depends on who you talk to.

I don't have any references for that module.It may or may not be Medeli.I don't show anything with triple zone snare in the Medeli Lineup and Alesis (as far as I know) hasn't released any other than this one...the STRIKE snare isn't a triple zone but the Cross stick/Side stick can be done with Velocity switching.

In electronic drum modules the voltage interpreted by the hit produces a MIDI note.The Head..(38)..the rim(40).
Typically the cross/side stick is when the 2 zones are hit simultaneously , as the module reads the combined voltage and produces an additional/different MIDI note and that triggers the sample.

EDIT:
LA Drums HD-008 is the same kit..there were (2 versions A or B)..
This kit was also the (Discontinued) Millenium MPS-500 USB.
This means more than likely it was a Medeli Kit..when Medeli discontinues/removes modules from it's lineup that includes all of the Licensing/"Private Labels".
Largo Australia - (AU)
Thomannmusic/Millenium-  (EU) (Millenium is a Thomannmusic "In House" Brand)
Alesis -  (US)

The rim is split..left and right side..each side triggers a different sample..so the module does not read interpret the voltage of a combined hit.(Head/Rim)

Snare - 38
Snare Rim 1 - 37
Snare Rim 2 - 85

There isn't any documentation on the Alesis site..

Attached:
Millenium MPS-500 USB User Manual
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 03:41:03 PM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 07:04:50 PM »
This is amazing Chaser. I cant believe the lengths you have gone to to help out here.  Unfortunately I'm 20 miles away from the kit until Friday, but will test some settings at the weekend.

The module has no external manufacturer, model or serial that I could see. But it looks identical to the MPS-500 USB info that you have sent.

The only documents I was able to get were the user manual. https://www.manualslib.com/products/Alesis-Dm7-2762169.html

Thanks again, I now need to work out what "Velocity switching" is !!

Cheers

Andy


Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 07:54:13 PM »
This is amazing Chaser. I cant believe the lengths you have gone to to help out here.  Unfortunately I'm 20 miles away from the kit until Friday, but will test some settings at the weekend.

The module has no external manufacturer, model or serial that I could see. But it looks identical to the MPS-500 USB info that you have sent.

The only documents I was able to get were the user manual. https://www.manualslib.com/products/Alesis-Dm7-2762169.html

Thanks again, I now need to work out what "Velocity switching" is !!

Cheers

Andy



No problem...that's what this Forum is all about.If for some reason it's not here..we'll find it.
This is an older kit...late 2000's..2010..it gets harder and harder over the years for documentation unless archived or from another manufacturer like HXM which I don't have much documentation with and why I couldn't a cross reference manual from Medeli which is who manufacturers/Re-brands for Alesis...Huaxin has worked with Roland.This kit was also known as the HXM HD-008.You'll be able to find videos on youtube etc

The HXM HD-008 User Manual..is probably the best manual out of all of them..Functions..MIDI chart..Voice Lists etc etc...It is a proper manual (43 pages)..compared to Alesis typical 7 page..which is mainly a User Guide made up of a few pages to cover multiple languages.
Double check with what is in the module but a majority of the time they match.
Alesis used to change a kit or 2 in the lineup.

Velocity switching is available in the STRIKE module as you can place a sample anywhere in a velocity range of your choice.
The DM10 MKII Pro module also has a cross stick function..but it is not a dedicated zone with a MIDI note being sent.

EDIT: Added Link
The pdf is too big at 2.2mb so I uploaded to my file sharing service.

EDIT #2:
as far as manufacturers go... the HD-008 is manufactured by HUAXIN MUSICAL INSTRUMENT CO.,LTD (HXM) which was one of the first Electronic drum manufacturers.The kit is still available as HD-008Land the module is still used in other configurations

It looks like Huaxin is also supplying one the new Millenium kits for Thomann's "Inhouse' kits...the MPS100...with their Flagship model HXM..XD2020
The other Millenium models are definitely Medeli.

Millenium MPS1000

Huaxin XD2020
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 09:44:08 PM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2022, 11:24:40 AM »
Thank you again. I'm going to be busy with this !! I'll report back. Cheers

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2022, 12:51:55 PM »
Hi Chaser, I've had to concede defeat. I took the snare to a repair cafe to check out the wiring and solder, all good. I've tried following the Edit settings in every manual you sent me. I've tried forums, I've tried FB groups and I've even tried resetting to factory defaults, but I simply cannot make the snare rim sound different to the snare pad.  I found YT videos for the HXM HD-008 with the rim being played (as you said above).

Someone on FB said "the 3 snare zones will probably have 3 different velocity settings. So the snare and rim go to the same midi channel". However, I don't really understand what they're saying and/or don't know if I can change velocity settings.

Thanks for all your help, but I can't think of anything else I can try.

Cheers

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2022, 09:20:00 PM »
Hi Chaser, I've had to concede defeat. I took the snare to a repair cafe to check out the wiring and solder, all good. I've tried following the Edit settings in every manual you sent me. I've tried forums, I've tried FB groups and I've even tried resetting to factory defaults, but I simply cannot make the snare rim sound different to the snare pad.  I found YT videos for the HXM HD-008 with the rim being played (as you said above).

Someone on FB said "the 3 snare zones will probably have 3 different velocity settings. So the snare and rim go to the same midi channel". However, I don't really understand what they're saying and/or don't know if I can change velocity settings.

Thanks for all your help, but I can't think of anything else I can try.

Cheers

I am not familiar with this (Huaxin) module and do not have one.
Trigger settings are based on Individual Playing Style..how you play..what you play..and everyone plays differently.
You never hit the exact same place twice or with the exact same force.

The snare has (3) zones and as posted above sends MIDI note per zone Head=38..Rim1=37  Rim2=40.The "velocity" settings definitions are different by manufactures/manuals..for example Thomann describes Touch Velocity..but referring to Velocity Curves.Sensitivity is how much velocity to trigger the sample..Dynamics is how much velocity to get the sample to max volume.
This module is older..and according to the manuals you can only set the Velocity for the pad/trigger as a whole...not per zone

The module only has one MIDI Channel..10..which is the MIDI Standardchannel for drums and it is fixed , you can't change it.As posted above..the MIDI note sent triggers the sample.If you want to check MIDI notes and the information sent with it (velocity etc) download MIDIOX (WIN)..or MIDI Monitor (macOS).
The Thomann MPS500 manual states you can change MIDI note assignments..(pg 41/42)
The HD008 manual shows no such option..

If the trigger settings on a module are incorrect...sensitivity is too high/max or dynamics is too low..or both..the Voice/sample is triggering at full velocity/volume.The biggest beginner mistake is to crank sensitivity to max/127 on every pad/trigger and dynamics turned down too low which makes for easier playing (less effort) and the Voice trigger more easily.
You don't want sensitivity at 127 for each zone on every pad/trigger..Since this is a 3 zone pad/trigger you definitely don't want the head sensitivity at 127 or dynamics down low..if anything you want the opposite otherwise or there may be some zone cross talk going on and the head is so sensitive the rims are triggering the Voice/sample.
You don't want the Dynamic Range setting low or you won't have any dynamics (softest hit/low volume to hardest hit/loud volume)..It's the combination of both settings,based on your playing style along with the volume setting on the voice.

The only video I could find anything remotely concerning the (3) zone snare was this one at :56..he has no problems triggering the (3) zones...however you'll notice... very light hits.
That being said..majority if not all of the videos I watched for the Huaxin modules (including the new Millenium MPS1000) all of the snares machine gun and they ramp up fast to it.
Drum module that use "Amplitude"..which are the majority of them..especially older..be it Medeli or Huaxin etc typically machine gun.
The samples aren't multi or don't have velocity layers.The harder you hit..the volume of the sample goes up , but it's the same sample.The Huaxin modules I watched machine gunned pretty fast without effort or hard hitting so the settings are either wrong..high sensitivity..low dynamics..LOG curve..terrible samples or a combination of all.
Drum modules are usually cr*ppy right out of the box , so resetting just puts it back to the original basic/generic settings.

The HD008 manual shows the triggers and different zones can be selected in Kit Edit mode..
DRUM KIT EDIT: change sound characteristics such as voice,volume, pan etc.
ADVANCED PARAMETER EDIT: which is physical characteristics of pad..sensitivity, trigger curve.
however both manual state the rim,edge etc can't be selected so the settings must be for the pad/trigger as a whole.

"Note:
1. There is no alternative part such as rim, edge can be selected. The mark under the pad icon will never appear.
It is different from part selection procedure in DRUM KIT EDIT".


Probably the 1st thing I would do is go into DRUM KIT EDIT..and check to see if the samples are being triggered..ie..turn the volume off on each Voice/zone and see if/how each zone triggers it's assigned sample..

Next..I would go into the snare parameters.. set the sensitivity to 60 (about 1/2) (pg 25)..dynamic range (pg 26) to full 127..and set the velocity curve (pg 26) to Linear and see if there is more separation between the zones.You can always turn the volume up on the Voice/sample.If the module allows you could also change the rim voice (pg 19) to something entirely different..like a cymbal so you can hear separation.This is an older module so you may be stuck with whatever section it allows.
While adjusting the sensitivity for the head..strike one of the rims and see if the number changes or resets..in case there is adjustment and the manual doesn't show it..wouldn't be the 1st time as manuals get lost in translation and I normally find a number of exploits in modules that are never mentioned.

There isn't much out there as far a Videos for settings.
The Millenium Drums site has videos..but not for the MPS500...can't hurt to ask.

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2022, 08:57:41 AM »
Thank you once again for the in-depth help. Here's some comments:

I went into DRUM KIT EDIT. And turned the volume off for each Voice/zone in turn. This illustrated that the snare head sound is being driven by the 3rd zone (snare rim 2 on page 19 HXM HD008 manual)

Here?s some settings I tried.
Snare head vol=0, sid-rim 1 vol=0, sid-rim2 vol=30 plays sid-rim2 voice on head and both rim zones
Snare head vol=0, sid-rim 1 vol=30, sid-rim2 vol=0 plays nothing
Snare vol=30, sid-rim 1 vol=0,  sid-rim2 vol=0 plays nothing

So that proves the snare head sound is coming from sid rim 2

I also went into the snare parameters, and set the sensitivity to 60, dynamic range to 127, and the velocity to Linear. Finally, I set the snare head voice to a crash cymbal and the result was it played the voice for side rim 2. So it looks like all snare head settings are being ignored. I proved this by setting the voice for snare rim 2 to a crash then got a crash cymbal sound when striking the snare head.

Following your advice, while adjusting the sensitivity for the head I struck one of the rims but the number didn?t change or reset. It just played the crash cymbal sound that I?d set earlier.

Thanks again for your advice in helping me get this far, I am somewhat confused as to why the snare head and rim 1 settings are being  ignored though.

Here is another video with multi zone snare being played. This snare looks identical to mine, including the half rim marking on the white coating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kng-6LWxtLk

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2022, 12:26:34 PM »
Thank you once again for the in-depth help. Here's some comments:

I went into DRUM KIT EDIT. And turned the volume off for each Voice/zone in turn. This illustrated that the snare head sound is being driven by the 3rd zone (snare rim 2 on page 19 HXM HD008 manual)

Here?s some settings I tried.
Snare head vol=0, sid-rim 1 vol=0, sid-rim2 vol=30 plays sid-rim2 voice on head and both rim zones
Snare head vol=0, sid-rim 1 vol=30, sid-rim2 vol=0 plays nothing
Snare vol=30, sid-rim 1 vol=0,  sid-rim2 vol=0 plays nothing

So that proves the snare head sound is coming from sid rim 2

I also went into the snare parameters, and set the sensitivity to 60, dynamic range to 127, and the velocity to Linear. Finally, I set the snare head voice to a crash cymbal and the result was it played the voice for side rim 2. So it looks like all snare head settings are being ignored. I proved this by setting the voice for snare rim 2 to a crash then got a crash cymbal sound when striking the snare head.

Following your advice, while adjusting the sensitivity for the head I struck one of the rims but the number didn?t change or reset. It just played the crash cymbal sound that I?d set earlier.

Thanks again for your advice in helping me get this far, I am somewhat confused as to why the snare head and rim 1 settings are being  ignored though.

Here is another video with multi zone snare being played. This snare looks identical to mine, including the half rim marking on the white coating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kng-6LWxtLk

I do not have any of the Huaxin pads/triggers so I am not familar with their wiring.
Manufacturers use different wiring for thier triggers..even tho they all are using piezo's and switches.
Roland wiring is different than Alesis..Yamaha wiring is proprietary and most of the time you get partial functionality at best.

Typically a (3) zone trigger uses (1) piezo and (2) switches and are cymbals.
Dual zone triggers use (2) piezos for toms Head/Rim..(tho early toms like Roland had switches for the rims).. and (1)piezo(Bow) and (1)switch (Edge) for cymbals.I don't know how this snare is wired for (3) zones but if there were (2) piezo's and a switch in a circuit you would probably have a sensitivity adjustment for the 2nd piezo on the rim.

For triggers using Piezos/switches..the piezo is on the tip...the switch is on the ring and triggers with multiple switches.. (1) switch will have a resistor to differentiate it's signal from the other switch...usually (3) zone triggers are single cable cymbals...Bow/Bell/Edge with switches on the Bell and Edge (dual cable is more complicated) , but in this case Rim1 and Rim2.
Those switches are open/close and allow the voltage thru from the piezo..then module interprets the voltage from the velocity of the hit,converts to MIDI.. assigns a sample .
The module not allowing sensitivity settings for rim or edge indicate those zones are probably switches..sensitivity is for the Piezo/voltage..a switch just opens and closes.The video shows the triggers with switches have a line indicating the switches area..on the cymbals that would also be the choke area.

Have you opened up the snare and checked the wiring?..you mentioned the repair shop checked the wiring/solder,(probably just checked continuity) but did it look like someone had been in there before and done a repair?..usually a new piezo or a new jack.

A dual zone cymbal when connected works properly..(as mentioned above) and triggers the head (cymbal bow/piezo) and rim (cymbal edge/switch)..so a single cable (3) zone cymbal would probably trigger all of the snare zones.

Rim2 triggering the snare Head and no adjustment/settings working for the Head/Rim1 and Voice/samples being switched.. suggest the tip and ring may be switched at the jack.
I don't have anything to work with like a patent,photo or schematic so for now it's speculation.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 01:52:13 PM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2022, 05:55:39 PM »
Well once again you have excelled yourself with info !! And I now have some tricky work to do following your suggestions. I wasn't present when the repair cafe opened it up, so I don't know what was checked, and the engineer was at lunch when I collected, so I couldn't speak with him. I'll have an investigation this week and report back. Where in the world are you?  I'm in UK. Thanks again.

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 10:22:16 PM »
Well once again you have excelled yourself with info !! And I now have some tricky work to do following your suggestions. I wasn't present when the repair cafe opened it up, so I don't know what was checked, and the engineer was at lunch when I collected, so I couldn't speak with him. I'll have an investigation this week and report back. Where in the world are you?  I'm in UK. Thanks again.

It's hard to tell without any wiring information..especially for older pads/triggers.
For older toms/snares around this time period (2000-2010's)the piezo is usually center mounted on some type of a reflection plate and the rim piezo is center mounted on the bottom of the shell as the shells (if any) were very shallow..the  switches are membrane switches and use a ribbon to connect to a PCB board.Sometimes the PCB board is connected to the jack..other times it's not.I don't know what type of switch was used in a tom/snare of this time period.
Piezo's have been used for decades as they are cheap,plentiful,simple and nothing else has really been developed to replace them because of that.
The wiring isn't that complicated as long as you know how the manufacturer wired them up..

I am located in Orange County CA....

Somewhere over the years Huaxin also changed the snare design...It is mentioned in some forums and Thomann still sells the replacement snare for the "New" MPS-500 Kits (discontinued..but New design/change to be around 2016..same module)..which is also the snare for the MPS-750.
The snare isn't described as (3) zone but "layered rims"..
You can see all the variations being offered/exported by (HXM) Shanghai Musical Instruments with the same module..

EDIT:
Attached some examples of Hellfire's older basic wiring schematics for Medeli Piezo/Piezo and Alesis vs Roland Piezo/Switch.
It gives you an idea how the same components can be wired differently for Polarity..series..parallel etc etc
There are multiple examples/variations all over the web

Some older examples of Alesis Roland by Michael Beatnik
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 10:15:34 AM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2022, 05:14:10 AM »
Wow! Don't know what else to say. Thank you

Offline Chaser

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2022, 10:52:45 AM »
Wow! Don't know what else to say. Thank you

Additional information...It looks like HXM uses Yamaha type wiring for this snare...piezo-switch-switch

Yamaha (3) zone snare..
Piezo (Ceramic part) +(POS)  =  Tip......Piezo (Brass part) - (NEG)   = Sleeve
 
The "layered rim" circuitry is 2 switches.
One switch is a simple one. The other one has a 10k resistor in serial.
Both switches are connected to the Ring + / - Sleeve.

Apparently there was also a special cable that can be purchased to make the snare compatible with Roland..

EDIT:
Added link...piezo-switch-switch diagram..same as 3 zone single cable cymbal

« Last Edit: June 21, 2022, 07:40:26 PM by Chaser »

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2022, 10:07:08 AM »
Thanks again Chaser, I'm seeing an electrical engineer this afternoon, so will take your wiring diags with me.

I was in Orange county 4 years ago, I drove from San Francicso to John Wayne airport in one day, took me nearly 9 hours with stops in Carmel and Monterey, I was visiting an American friend who I hadn't seen for over 30 years. He lives in Santa Ana, next day he took me to San Clemente, Dana Point and Long Beach. Then drove me back to LAX the next day.

Re: DM7 Rimshot makes same sound as snare
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2022, 08:25:26 AM »
The electrical engineer couldn't find any wiring or solder issues, we proved that the rim was working by attaching a meter to the contacts and then I squeezed the rim and the meter bleeped every time a connection was made. I then found a guy with a snare approx. 40 miles from my home so I asked him if I could take my DM7 module to his house and test his snare. I did this on Saturday and it worked, so I bought it and now have a working multi zone snare. The only difference seems to be the white pad skin doesn't have the half rim marking that mine does. I'm still perplexed as to why my other snare seems to completely ignore the module settings. Thank you for all your help and suggestions.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 08:34:32 AM by Minety15 »