Author Topic: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk (SOLVED)  (Read 1252 times)

Hey guys, just wanted answer on this one.

I had someone made me a custom snare drum specifically made for Roland Modules to get positional sensing, however, I only have an Alesis DM10 (but I did request positional sensing snare because I'll be getting a Roland Module in about two months)

Therefore, I'm having crosstalk problems (hitting the snare head, sometimes triggers the snare rim and vice versa) with the rim and head, is it because this was designed specifically for Roland's positional sensing (cause iirc, PS in Roland relies on the crosstalk between rim and head)

Here's the photo: https://imgur.com/a/vxLbYEz
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 07:36:48 PM by Ron Daniel »

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2022, 08:57:47 AM »
Hey guys, just wanted answer on this one.

I had someone made me a custom snare drum specifically made for Roland Modules to get positional sensing, however, I only have an Alesis DM10 (but I did request positional sensing snare because I'll be getting a Roland Module in about two months)

Therefore, I'm having crosstalk problems (hitting the snare head, sometimes triggers the snare rim and vice versa) with the rim and head, is it because this was designed specifically for Roland's positional sensing (cause iirc, PS in Roland relies on the crosstalk between rim and head)

Here's the photo: https://imgur.com/a/vxLbYEz

If you can't seem to get it resolved with the individual trigger settings Threshold/Sensitivity etc then check the Zone Xtalk..

The Original DM10 module has a Zone Xtalk setting..

Alesis DM10 Reference Manual     pg 25

ZoneXTalk: This setting adjusts how susceptible triggers on a "shared" input (e.g., the bell and
bow of a ride cymbal, or the head and rim of a the same drum pad) are to "crosstalk" from each
other. The higher the setting, the less likely these trigger pairs will cause each other to trigger
unintentionally. (Note: We recommend increasing this setting for drum pads on which you want
to produce "rimshots" by striking the head and rim simultaneously.

EDIT:
I should also Note..if the drum was wired specifically for Roland..the Piezo's are wired differently for Roland and Alesis.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 09:31:10 AM by Chaser »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2022, 05:26:05 PM »
Think if I temporarily stick the rim piezo to the shell until my Roland Module comes will do the trick? I have changed my settings for so long now and it doesn't get rid of the xtalk issues

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2022, 08:01:38 PM »
Think if I temporarily stick the rim piezo to the shell until my Roland Module comes will do the trick?

You may have to...

The Zone Xtalk should have taken it out.The Dm10 and the TriggerIO were the only Alesis modules that had the Zone Xtalk Feature.It's not the same as the standard Xtalk settings which was for Xtalk between other pads on the Rack.Turn the sensitivty all the way down to zero for the Rim..does the head still intermittently trigger the Rim articulation/Sound?

The DM10 toms have the Head Piezo centered directly above the Rim Piezo and the early Realhead 12" with the shallow bottom had the piezo's nearly on top of each other and the Zone Xtalk worked well on those however there is isolation/separation on the mounting of the piezos just like the newer columns/plate.
Looking at the trigger design you have I don't see any isolation/separation at all..the Head/piezo and rim/piezo are rigid..mounted to one Rigid setup and making it difficult for the module to separate/interpret the voltage/signals.
Other manufactures of the same/spider design (R-drums (RTS)..Flextrigger)have similar mounting/adjustment for the dual zone setup Head/Piezo plate but with rubber isolators (rubber Grommets).
Crossbar and Plate systems usually mount the Rim/Piezo to the shell...for a time Crossbar systems didn't and had nothing but triggering problems.
You'll never see a Head and Rim piezo on a reflector plate setup.The Alesis STRIKE even isolates/separates the 2 Head piezos on 2 separate plates/foam as does the newer Mesh pads with the sensitivity knob.
I see a number of the Spider designs out there including 3D printing setups..a lot for single zone (Head) with the Rim Piezo mounting on the shell.
There are a few for dual zone..also using a rubber isolator between the Head plate and main assembly

EDIT:
Added Link

Flextrigger 2.0
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 08:39:23 PM by Chaser »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2022, 05:45:13 AM »
So those rubber isolators really do work then, gotcha, I'll try those out as well. Btw, if I put a rubber grommet in there. does it still work for Roland Positional Sensing?

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2022, 10:24:12 AM »
So those rubber isolators really do work then, gotcha, I'll try those out as well. Btw, if I put a rubber grommet in there. does it still work for Roland Positional Sensing?

I pointed out that not having the rubber isolators may be having an impact on how the DM10 may have problems distinguishing between the 2 piezos if wired as separate zones..I don't know how your setup is wired.
I have no experience with Rolands Positional sensing and DIY triggers other than a requirement is a center mounted Piezo and a minimum of 2 sensors.
Positional sensing requires at least two sensors to operate and not the same as having multiple "zones". It reads the impact registered by both sensors and expresses those as a ratio.I believe some Roland modules use MIDI CC16..not sure.
I don't use Roland modules so you'll have to check with users over at Vdrums Forum for the Pros and Cons with DIY triggers and Positional Sensing on a Roland module.
Post a pic , I am sure someone will chime in if they notice anything is wrong with the design.
There are ongoing Topics on this.There are also users with DIY triggers experimenting with Positional Sensing at the Audiofront Forum (eDRUMin)

EDIT:
Added Links
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 12:28:10 PM by Chaser »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2022, 08:56:35 AM »
Thanks, I'll give it a try, I do have some problems with vdrums forum tho, this appears everytime I try to go there: https://imgur.com/a/XpvHgoG

When I connect to other wifi I think I'm able to access that, but anyway, thanks for the info, really appreciate it.

I tried putting the rim piezo at the shell, it seems to improve but there's still some little crosstalk happening, I'm fine with it for now I guess, i'll just try to get some rubber grommet in there and I think it'll work perfectly.

But seeing the wiring diagram for the Alesis vs Roland, they are indeed different, when I sticked the rim piezo at the drum shell, it triggered the snareRim perfectly, but when I try to trigger the snare head, there's still crosstalk from the snare rim, even if I tried pulling out the snare head piezo and triggering it outside the drum shell itself, without any contact with the brackets etc. Is it possibly because of the wiring? (this snare drum is wired for a roland module but my first pad for this DM10 was the Roland PDX-8 and it worked perfectly, given it's got some rubber grommet in there, but the wiring should be the same as this new snare drum I have since its made with a roland module in mind, so its kind of strange when I tried to separate the head piezo from the rest, it still triggered the rim)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 09:38:26 AM by Ron Daniel »

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2022, 02:02:55 PM »
Thanks, I'll give it a try, I do have some problems with vdrums forum tho, this appears everytime I try to go there: https://imgur.com/a/XpvHgoG

When I connect to other wifi I think I'm able to access that, but anyway, thanks for the info, really appreciate it.

I tried putting the rim piezo at the shell, it seems to improve but there's still some little crosstalk happening, I'm fine with it for now I guess, i'll just try to get some rubber grommet in there and I think it'll work perfectly.

But seeing the wiring diagram for the Alesis vs Roland, they are indeed different, when I sticked the rim piezo at the drum shell, it triggered the snareRim perfectly, but when I try to trigger the snare head, there's still crosstalk from the snare rim, even if I tried pulling out the snare head piezo and triggering it outside the drum shell itself, without any contact with the brackets etc. Is it possibly because of the wiring? (this snare drum is wired for a roland module but my first pad for this DM10 was the Roland PDX-8 and it worked perfectly, given it's got some rubber grommet in there, but the wiring should be the same as this new snare drum I have since its made with a roland module in mind, so its kind of strange when I tried to separate the head piezo from the rest, it still triggered the rim)

How is it wired at the jack ?..pic looks like 1/8" (3.5mm)
For now you could swap the wires at the jack....and then swap back later to however it is wired now.
Rim piezo - ceramic to ring...brass to sleeve.
Head piezo -   ceramic to tip ...brass to sleeve.
This would wire it up as dual zone.



Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2022, 08:33:52 PM »
Yes, this was wired from a 3.5mm to a female quarter inch. So in this case, the rim works perfectly, the snare doesn't so I guess I just switch the wiring for the snare

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2022, 06:46:50 PM »
Thanks, I'll give it a try, I do have some problems with vdrums forum tho, this appears everytime I try to go there: https://imgur.com/a/XpvHgoG

When I connect to other wifi I think I'm able to access that, but anyway, thanks for the info, really appreciate it.

I tried putting the rim piezo at the shell, it seems to improve but there's still some little crosstalk happening, I'm fine with it for now I guess, i'll just try to get some rubber grommet in there and I think it'll work perfectly.

But seeing the wiring diagram for the Alesis vs Roland, they are indeed different, when I sticked the rim piezo at the drum shell, it triggered the snareRim perfectly, but when I try to trigger the snare head, there's still crosstalk from the snare rim, even if I tried pulling out the snare head piezo and triggering it outside the drum shell itself, without any contact with the brackets etc. Is it possibly because of the wiring? (this snare drum is wired for a roland module but my first pad for this DM10 was the Roland PDX-8 and it worked perfectly, given it's got some rubber grommet in there, but the wiring should be the same as this new snare drum I have since its made with a roland module in mind, so its kind of strange when I tried to separate the head piezo from the rest, it still triggered the rim)

How is it wired at the jack ?..pic looks like 1/8" (3.5mm)
For now you could swap the wires at the jack....and then swap back later to however it is wired now.
Rim piezo - ceramic to ring...brass to sleeve.
Head piezo -   ceramic to tip ...brass to sleeve.
This would wire it up as dual zone.

UPDATE: Switching the snare head wires, didn't work, I still have xtalk issues when I trigger the snare piezo and it sometimes triggers the snare rim, even if it is pulled out. Any idea what I may be missing? Could it be... the wire that's transferring vibrations to the rim? like... I see these designs you sent here, they have rubber grommet's in the wire hole the head piezo
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 07:15:19 PM by Ron Daniel »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2022, 09:03:56 PM »
UPDATE: This was the culprit, apparently my audio jack doesn't go in all the way, trying to find a fix now.

Photo: https://imgur.com/a/MlCW4Hy

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2022, 09:11:19 PM »
I took some time,dug out a DM10 module and soldered/duplicated your setup as far as dual piezos.. (ceramic to ring/tip..brass to sleeve)..to 1/8" (3.5mm) TRS jack..to.. 1/8" (3.5mm)TRS x 1/4"(6.35mm) TRS cable... to 1/4" (6.35mm) TRS jack...
I installed the setupon an 8" brass/bronze cymbal using foam ring decouplers ,if you ever going to  or want to get crosstalk..it would be from (2) piezo's on a vibrating piece of metal a short distance apart.
I assigned a crash to the rim..left the snare head as a snare..beat the hell out of it and had no problems with separation,mistriggering or crosstalk...default settings in the module.
I literally have 100's of these parts..however all my cable ends are not molded ..All the components I have require they be soldered , so I can see or check connections and repair if/when necassary.
Does the cable end go all the way in ?..is it possible the molded cable to jack you have has a short and is shorting out or loose/vibrating in the 1/8" jack? causing an intermittent connection.

EDIT:
Apparently you were posting while I was posting and stopped because I had to resize the pic in photoshop as it was too big....hate it when that happens..lol
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 09:14:29 PM by Chaser »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2022, 04:32:20 AM »
I had someone professional on electronic connections, see what's causing the audio jack to not go in all the way, do you have any idea what's probably causing it?

Offline AlanK

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2022, 09:34:01 AM »
Shine a flashlight into it (or take a flash pic with your cellphone cam) to see if there's an obstruction? Or take that tape off and see if there's an issue with the solder joint, maybe they used so much it seeped into the jack so it stops short?
DM10X with Addictive Drums 2, Pro X hi-hat, 4 crashes, foam cone conversion w Roland mesh heads, Laurin Drums snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Mapex 2 legged hi-hat, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2022, 11:17:22 AM »
I had someone professional on electronic connections, see what's causing the audio jack to not go in all the way, do you have any idea what's probably causing it?

As in..it's too long?..or doesn't make a positive fit.
I don't know which female jack you are using..there aren't too many out there and I see the nut type matches some I have (I have other closed frame but for pcb mounting) , but here's the ones I have and some male comparisons and different shoulders (for recessed pcb mnt etc, and they are positive fit..you have to work at pulling apart..they all measure at .137 diameter (3.5mm = 0.137795) however the molded one shown is .006 shorter..the distance between tip/ring is also shorter and doesn't line up as well with the female jacks tip/ring requires little effort to plug in and out..so not as positive fit as the others..
Since everything (for the most part) is being made in China these days I found if you have to buy from China (or a US seller that buys from China) , purchase all the components with the same company so you have a better chance they are matched.
I have to purchase aircraft fittings (No US companies make them anymore) as I use a lot of them (GX Series) for custom cables/wiring so I purchase in bulk.
One company drills out the solder cups..one does not.They both use different thread pitches,pins are .005-.010 in difference in length diameter and a couple other differences..The fitting with the larger pins would fit into the female of the other manufacture very tight,the fitting with the smaller pins would fit into the other female designed for the larger pins but would not make a positive fit/connection so the result was intermittent(cable/wire movement) or no connection,this design is threaded connection so the only way to figure it out was a multimeter...after you did all the assemblies/soldering
Side by side you can't tell them apart.. but the components are not interchangeable and have the same part numbers when purchasing from different vendors..or on Amazon ,ebay etc.This kind of cr*p can be very annoying/frustrating.
I have done some Trigger assemblies including the drop in basket type for friends/Live musicians that  needed dependable (peace of mind) ones guaranteed not to vibrate apart from being hit and constant vibration.It's annoying/disaster if you had to remove a head/re-tune etc because a cable came loose during a show or transport.
Personally I would adjust the print to allow for a GX Series ..overall the same footprint as the 3.5mm TRS setup...the hole size is larger  .450.. compared to around .240-.250 but the difference in quality and reliability is 100x's..at least..
 
I added a comparison image for the GX Series and TRS.

EDIT:
Added Pics
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 01:02:45 PM by Chaser »

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2022, 05:05:27 AM »
My friend electrician hasn't got the time yet to test it out with a multimeter, but I see your point, the guy who made this custom trigger probably didn't take into account that some are indeed different in size by a little bit, hopefully we just need to adjust some stuff inside so it fits perfectly and doesn't have to order another one of this, it is indeed annoying now that I think about it. Shipping here in the Philippines takes a lot of time...

Offline Chaser

Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2022, 01:30:49 PM »
My friend electrician hasn't got the time yet to test it out with a multimeter, but I see your point, the guy who made this custom trigger probably didn't take into account that some are indeed different in size by a little bit, hopefully we just need to adjust some stuff inside so it fits perfectly and doesn't have to order another one of this, it is indeed annoying now that I think about it. Shipping here in the Philippines takes a lot of time...

Hopefully it is something simple as Alan referred to..
I see what appears to be hot glue or something (in the image in the first post).
Is this being used to hold the TRS cable itself to the jack?..or the jack to print?..or both..
After reviewing/comparing the image and the one with the cable..the cable male end appears to be shorter than I thought.
it's hard to tell by the image...I checked my inventory and  the 3.5mm jack may be of this type..with a back nut..


Re: Custom center mounted trigger for snare Alesis DM10 XTalk
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2023, 07:36:26 PM »
ALRIGHT PEOPLE UPDATE!

It was a factory defect, the contacts inside aren't bent enough to have contact with the ring and sleeve, it sometimes contacts but its not consistent, therefore the inconsistent crosstalking, had to replace it entirely but thankfully the guy that made my snare drum offered a replacement for free and a free TRS cable, thanks ya'll for you concerns, make sure you guys also check your inputs if they're working properly  ;D