Author Topic: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions  (Read 24340 times)

Offline vaikl

C'mon Gerdy, be a little proud of your own work. ;) ;)

I - as a german too - know you Bundeswehr guys, you are perfect to the bone but don't let anyone admire yourself, because you think that everyone could do the same, right? You are dead right, but:

I couldn't, because I'm a sluggish, rushed, impatient 50-years old ex-manager with lots of beads of sweat on my forehead if I only think of the work I have to do to get such an impressive but very logical setup. Maybe I'll do that in future, but for now I'm just looking at some of your ideas and think for myself "Hey, that's a fantastic but simple idea to do it this way!".

Think of the many non-/semi-pro users we have here as members and how they would look at your kit with big eyes and watering mouth, because they had never seen such a straight-forward concept. And give them a chance to admire it and simultaneously take some ideas for their own setup.

Offline vaikl

Uhm, I had forgotten that I wanted to ask you something, Gerdy :)

I'm using a Xenyx 1622 USB for recording the module's sound into my Mac. I don't use the USB connection (because it's old 1.1, not 2.0), I'm using a Presonus FireStudio Project as a kind of "mediation device" between aux outs of the Xenyx and channels on the FireStudio because this way I can use the driver's in-build mixer to level volume between analog inputs and digital DAW tracks.

I also don't use USB-to-Xenyx to monitor my DAW output, I'm going via the FireStudio analog outs to the main and control room outs of the 1622 to serve different speaker pairs.

Have you ever thought of using an external audio device to avoid the not-so-performant USB port on your Xenyx?? Or is the Xenyx performance good enough to play live?? Just wondering, because I'm not the live guy right now but could be in some months or years ;)


Offline Gerdy

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2012, 08:19:24 PM »
Klaus, you old rascal, you forced me to use my dictionary for nearly every second word to understand you…and that as a german to a german inside an english speaking forum…unbelievable. ;D ;D ;D

The military is part of my life for more than 25 years and yes of course, it is affecting how I’m acting sometimes in civil life. I would lie if I would deny it. It is never meant in a bad way when I’m using examples to explain or to compare situations. That’s my way of visualizing a situation. I’m dealing with situations from another point of view and therefor I’m using sometimes a military situation to make it impersonal. Sometimes it matches perfect. If a new drummer, that is having problems with the rudiments, would asking me for something very complicated that he likes to play I would say: “A soldier should learn how to shoot with the old rifle before asking for the machinegun”. That is impersonal, but it matches the situation.
You can compare that with your childhood as the parents said: “Big boys don’t cry”.
(or the german version: “An indian chief knows no pain”.)

Klaus, thank you very much for explaining me your configuration.
That is very interesting. You are recording your drum set to different tracks inside your DAW like recording a drum set inside the studio. That’s fantastic and therewith you have given me an additional option I’m able to look on. Thanks again.

I have to split my answer now because of the given situation with the band and our equipment and the situation that I’m working in my free time for a recording studio with mobile recording service.

1.) Equipment of the recording studio:

The guys of the studio are the keyboarder (Richard) and the guitarist (Andreas) of the band I played with during the 80’s.
Good friends and musicians are never loosing contact.

Here is the Link to the webside that is showing the equipment:
Link removed - Google linked to this article !

If our band would like to produce a high quality studio CD my friends from “(name removed because of Google)” would do it inside their home studio for free.
That is one reason why my choosen equipment is not including recording functionallity.

And here is another crazy situation:
My friends from “(name removed because of Google)” asked me if I would like to start a new band project with them next year. Next year I’m on my meanwhile ninth (and hopefully last) mission and my current unit in Germany will be moved end of 2013 to another garrison, which is forcing me to move.
The new garrison is in a distance of 15 kilometers from the recording studio.
You know what that means.
Reunion after more than 25 years.
And Richard the keyboarder would like to see me using a TD-30 drum-tec kit.
Uhhhh….we will see what the future brings.


2.) Recordings of the band inside the rehearsal room:

Our soundman is recording the whole band at the same time.
Therefor he is picking up the channels from the PA mixer with “Audacity” on his laptop.
The e-drum set sound uses two channels inside the PA mixer.
The quality is good but not comparable to a studio recorded CD.
It is absolutely ok for our intension because we are only recording small sequences of the songs, mostly the sung parts to check the harmony afterwards.
The next thing is that we are practicing with a normal loudness. That’s the big advantage of the e-drum set.

I do not have recordings from our band at home for practicing.
It may sound strange but a lot of the played songs, especially the rock classics, are burned in my mind and I played these songs thousand times and finally I grew up with these songs.
I’m only practicing a bit, and only with new songs.
Because of the e-drum set I’m focused on the sound creation. That is my challenge and it makes so much fun to work with sounds. If available I’m using drumless tracks from newer songs for practicing and my sound creation is orientated to the original sound. And if I think that a specific song needs a bit of another sound I’m doing it because it is my interpretation how that song has to sound with me as the drummer.
Normally we are using the original sequence of a song.
But live on stage is different. You have to work with the audience.
And if it needs a longer guitar solo, yeah.
And if the keyboarder likes to answer that guitar solo with a keyboard solo, yeah.
And if I like to do something crazy, yeah.
Ups, I missed the bass guitar, yeah.
That is playing live and it works if you are playing together with flexible and creative musicians.


3.) Xenyx mixer and internal USB sound card:
That part is not more up to date.
The PreSonus FireStudio Project replaced the Xenyx mixer.

I was looking for something to combine all my sound sources together in one device and to mix the sound. And it should be easy to handle at home, in the rehearsal room and on stage.
I had a lot of impressions through the used equipment of my friends from the recording studio, equipment from the bands we worked with and finally the equipment of my own band.
I saw some versions of the Xenyx mixer series being used from some bands.

I spoke at first with the band about my plan of using a 2 in 1 set and afterwards with my friends from the recording studio. We discussed several options. And I was looking for active speakers in addition.
The offered Behringer bundle from the musicstore Thomann with 2x 15” 215D active speakers and the 1222 USB mixer was an option to kill two birds with one stone. I studied the downloadable manual, watched several videos, phoned with the PA section from Thomann and explained my intension.
I drove to Thomann (250km) one week later and got my headphones and prepaired laptop (with Asio4all, Addictive Drums, Cubase and VSTHost installed) with me.
After half a day sitting in a small room with mixer and my laptop connected and listening to the active speakers I made my decission and bought that bundle.
I took the additional chance to walk over to the drum section for taking a closer look onto the new DM10 X kit (plastik rack clamps, thin and wobbly snare stand, 12” pads with notch at the bottom, crash and ride cymbals with A+B ports etc.).


Laptop adjustments:

I downloaded and used this manual from Native Instruments for preparing the laptop to get the most performance out of it.
Select your operating system.

Windows 7 Tuning Tips for Audio Processing
http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/questions/847/Windows+7+Tuning+Tips+for+Audio+Processing

Windows XP Tuning Tips for Audio Processing
http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/questions/343/Windows+XP+Tuning+Tips+for+Audio+Processing


Windows Vista Tuning Tips for Audio Processing
http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/questions/354/Windows+Vista+Tuning+Tips+for+Audio+Processing


Mac OS X Tuning Tips for Audio Processing
http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/questions/974/Mac+OS+X+Tuning+Tips+for+Audio+Processing



I made additional adjustments and deactivated some drivers I do not need.
Furthermore I’m using a program called TuneUp Utilities.
That program has a “Turbo mode” and is deactivating also some unnecessary functions.


Third-party analyzing tools:

These tools are shown inside the manuals from Native Instruments and are very helpful for your system.

DPC Latency Checker
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

LatencyMon
http://resplendence.com/latencymon


Asio4all settings:
That part is not more up to date.
The PreSonus FireStudio Project replaced the Xenyx mixer.

Here are the settings for VSTHost:



Here are the settings for the Xenyx USB sound card:




My USB device “Power-On” sequence:

Laptop > Xenyx Mixer > Both modules > Start of VSTHost
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:33:59 PM by Gerdy »

Offline vaikl

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2012, 09:30:23 PM »
Klaus, you old rascal, you forced me to use my dictionary for nearly every second word to understand you…and that as a german to a german inside an english speaking forum…unbelievable. ;D ;D ;D

Maybe we are using different versions of Leo?? ;)

Quote
Klaus, thank you very much for explaining me your configuration.
That is very interesting. You are recording your drum set to different tracks inside your DAW like recording a drum set inside the studio.

The beauty of the FireStudio lies in the ability to use it like a normal mixer with 10 ins/outs, as a DAW-integrated device (StudioOne can make fantastic workflows with it) *or* as a standalone device for live situations. Unlike analog mixers I can setup different mix templates for different in/out combinations and routings. I've payed 385€ new at Thomann and it's worth every cent for me.

Quote
That is playing live and it works if you are playing together with flexible and creative musicians.

As I wrote in several threads, my last live band is ages away from today. The last very creative time with other members I had with a guitarist guy named Klaus Walz, who is still touring with his re-unioned former bands like Epitaph and Jane - good ol' german hard rock ;D
And that was a time when nobody called us "four musicians and a drummer" ;D ;D

Quote
I took the additional chance to walk over to the drum section for taking a closer look onto the new DM10 X kit (plastik rack clamps, thin and wobbly snare stand, 12” pads with notch at the bottom, crash and ride cymbals with A+B ports etc.).

That's why I wrote that Alesis should urgently take a look at your setup to remember how to make things really professional.

Quote
Here are the settings for the Xenyx USB sound card:

You can uncheck the "WDM-Treiber immer mit 16 Bit öffnen" and the "Immer 44,1 kHz in 48 kHz konvertieren" check boxes, unless you have troubles with no audio over USB. This settings only affect problems with some rare USB devices and the Xenyx low-level hardware drivers are not known to cause trouble. Maybe the Hardware Buffer option will do some performance boost, but this is more like try-and-error.

Yep, that's more like a sophisticated conversation ::)

Offline Trondster

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2012, 02:20:04 AM »
Hmm - Gerdy - I think you can get even lower latency if you lower the buffer size as bit, to maybe say - 64 samples. Try to make it as low as possible, and if you hear cracks and pops, just dial it up a step, until any cracks and pops no longer are audible.

And - since you've taken great lengths making the setup robust and redundant - do be aware of one of the weak spots of the Dm10 module - the jog wheel. You have probably noticed that the jog wheel over time is more fiddly to use, where values sometimes change and sometimes don't when you turn the wheel. I've had the wheel "turn" on me by itself when I was playing, changing the kit in the middle of a song. That could be disastrous during a performance!
A little preventive cleaning could help a lot - either with a vacuum cleaner or a can of compressed air - to remove dust stuck under the jog wheel. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Gerdy

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2012, 01:25:53 PM »
@ Vaikl / Klaus:

Thank you very much for your help.
At the moment I’m studying the Presonus FireStudio Project (manual, software, drivers etc.) and how to include it into my setup and taking the advantage of the Firewire connection (and its zero latency).
Just now I’m prepairing a catalogue of some questions and some drawings I would like to PM you Klaus. :o
Thanks again very much.


@ Trondster:

Thank you very much for your help and assistance.
Lowering the buffer size is reducing the latency I know.
The situation is that after a while with very low buffer size I’m hearing some cracks.
That happens just about after half an hour.
288 samples are an adjustment with long term experience and it is working very well.

I’m close before bying the Presonus FireStudio Project and combining it with the Xenyx mixer.
I like real buttons and knops for adjusments.
I’m thinking of a combined setup and/or an optional setup without Xenyx mixer.
That would be: Firewire interface > DI Box > Stagebox > PA mixer
We will see. I’m waiting for the answer of Klaus after he answered my PM.

You pointed out a very important thing: Dust-the creeping electronic killer.

If you take a closer look to the pictures of the Xenyx mixer, DM10 module and DI box you can see that I sealed unused plugs with rubber dummys. (Some pictures are made with removed rubber dummys)
That supports in addition the plug-in sequence. I cannot make wrong plug inserts because they are sealed.
The rubber dummys are from Neutrik.

If I’m not using my drum set I’m covering mixer, laptop and modules with black towels.
The drum pads are covered with the original mylar heads (reversed).
That prevents that dust is crawling through the mesh heads inside the pads.
I have a prepaired cleaning kit with brushes, cleaning wipes, towels, swiffer dusters, 303 protectant for the DMPpad cymbals and a very soft desinfection fluid for cleaning the rack and metal surfaces.
I’m using my vacuum cleaner to clean the pedestal. And I’m using a small attachement with the vacuum cleaner for removing the dust from the modules.
Such cleaning, maintanance and service intervalls are done every second week and/or in preperation for a gig.

Trondster, you and me we are taking care of our equipment. ;)

About the jog wheel.
I’m using it after switching on the modules to go up to preset 120 from where my prepaired drum presets are starting.
From there I’m using the buttons “Up” and “Down”.
I do not switch drum presets during playing.

All drum presets are prepaired and I select them before a new song starts.
I prepaired two folders with drum presets for Addictive Drums.
The first folder is named “1 X Kit presets” and is opened with the first instance.
The second folder is named “2 Studio Kit presets” and is opened with the second instance.

Each song has 4 presets. 2 module presets and 2 AD presets.
Even if a preset is not including an instrument or an effect I’m creating an empty preset.
My presets are named with the same shortcut and with the same preset number.

Example: “All You Zombies” from “The Hooters”.
That song uses the preset number 165 on both modules and both AD instances.
Its shortcut name is Zomb.

X-Kit module preset 165: X Zomb
Studio kit module preset 165: S Zomb
AD preset first instance / X-Kit module: 165 X Zomb
AD preset second instance / Studio-kit module: 165 S Zomb

That’s why I have a music sheet holder placed next to the modules and above the iPad.
I have a list with song name, preset number, shortcut and status of both HiHat’s there.

Here is an excerpt of my list:





For selecting the preset combination I press the button “Up” on both modules and touch the AD preset arrow at my iPad. Afterwards I’m taping on the Behringer AB footswitch for setting the HiHat status.
(red: closed / green: opened)
That works very quickly and takes 5 seconds.
Meanwhile I got everything in my mind. The list is like my visual control sheet.
For the song “All You Zombies” I know: “165 Zomb red-green”

Sounds complicated but it is very easy and fast.

I thought of using additional foot switches and Midi commands but it may sound crazy, I’m a control freak, I have to look on each display that the correct preset is selected before the song starts.
And I have to turn half around to see the displays and to tap on the footswitches.
A Midi command foot switch solution would maybe save 2 seconds. That isn’t worth of doing it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 01:40:10 PM by Gerdy »

Offline Gerdy

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2012, 05:10:09 PM »
Update 18 sept 2012:
- PreSonus FireStudio Project as Firewire Interface and DSP mixer included
- New electronic setup, device & cable management, monitoring and emergency plans included

The whole section of the article is new.
Please look here:
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg23996#msg23996

Thanks to everybody.
Your comments helped me to rework the used electronic components.
I exchanged the Xenyx mixer as USB interface with the Firewire interface PreSonus FireStudio Project.
The result is absolutely fantastic and unbelievable.
PreSonus is attesting “zero latency” with the firewire connection.
And they are right. Drum hits with the DM10 module sounds and Addictive Drums are absolutely at the same time.
We know, latency is always there, but honestly, I do not know where to find latency now.
I did a long term test over 24 hours running the whole system with drum loops of both Addictive Drums instances and checking it with the program “dpclat”. The result was fantastic. No dropouts shown.
The CPU usage of the laptop is 38% to 45%. The whole system is absolutely stabil.

The Xenyx mixer is now my monitor sound mixer.

The whole setup was tested over the last weekend together with the band.
And they are absolutely amazed about the PreSonus, its functionality and "zero latency".

I would like to thank vaikl / Klaus for directing me to the PreSonus FireStudio Project.
And Klaus, I would like to thank you very much especially for the phone call where you answered all my questions before I bought the PreSonus and the necessary express card with Texas Instrument chipset.

Offline vaikl

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2012, 06:38:13 PM »
Gerdy, glad I could help ;)

For those who don't need a 10-channel-input rack device and are looking for smaller, mobile devices, Presonus also offers a FireStudio Mobile version with the same technology inside, but in a compact and very sturdy steel case with 8 inputs, 2 as XLR mic/instrument in's, plus S/PDIF in/out. The whole FireStudio family is daisy-chainable among each other with the same software/driver.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 06:50:49 PM by vaikl »

Offline Trondster

Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2012, 09:19:56 AM »
Hmm - the PreSonus FireStudio Mobile looks quite awesome!

And - I cannot help to comment - I gotta get a Presonus mixer/external sound card - the headphone output goes to eleven!!! :D :D :D
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Greg

  • Guest
Re: 2 in 1 Stage Drum Set (Studio+X) with new drum- & module rack constructions
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2012, 09:16:14 PM »
Thanks Gerdy for all the work you put in to help us e-drummers out. You are a wiz at this stuff. I'm used to acoustic drums but your input and set-up really inspire me to learn about all you explained here. Shoot, why would one want an acoustic set if they had a set up like yours, lol...
 
All my best.

Greg