Author Topic: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst  (Read 673 times)

Hi there, as fresh as it gets for me i found this forum and my hopes are high that someone knows whats going on. When i record my drumming in Ableton with for instance sup drummer or addictive drums the hihat  in playback sounds as open while i kept i down while recording Strange is that when i put the pedal down it sounds closed in while in playback....i got lost in the "keymap" thing and as this error IMHO occurs is all my vst software i wondered of the issue is in the hardware (crimson) side. I am not a complete beginner but in switching from acoustic to electronic this kind of things drives me nuts...

Help is appreciated a lot! :) :) https://www.alesisdrummer.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif

Offline Chaser

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2021, 12:05:19 PM »
Hi there, as fresh as it gets for me i found this forum and my hopes are high that someone knows whats going on. When i record my drumming in Ableton with for instance sup drummer or addictive drums the hihat  in playback sounds as open while i kept i down while recording Strange is that when i put the pedal down it sounds closed in while in playback....i got lost in the "keymap" thing and as this error IMHO occurs is all my vst software i wondered of the issue is in the hardware (crimson) side. I am not a complete beginner but in switching from acoustic to electronic this kind of things drives me nuts...

Help is appreciated a lot! :) :) https://www.alesisdrummer.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif

Welcome to the Forum !

The Crimson II Module/DM10 MKII Studio issue has been around for years with the Hi Hat open/closed tied to MIDI Note 8 and the pedal position CC4 determines the open>closed..
You cannot change/remap the open/closed to individual notes in the module to match different key/MIDI maps.
The solution will be different for each Software/Vst developer as most if not all have their own MIDI mapping.

One thing to note is I have never seen anyone mentioning changing the Hi Hat Controller.
The Crimson II has 2 different controller settings under the menu..one for the Reahat pedal(continuous/variable) and one for the Pro-X(FSR) ..so that is something to experiment with along with experimenting using GM Mode
I presume most if not all are using the Realhat pedal as the Pro-X had been discontinued around the time of the Crimson II release.

Here is a Topic for the Crimson II and AD2 and I created a clean Key/MIDI map for the Crimson II you can download

Alesis Crimson II mapping issues AD2

I linked to some other examples with the Crimson II and different software/Vst and you will see the same issue with the module MIDI mapping and the workarounds they used..

Alesis Crimson II Hi-Hat Issue Part 1 Reason 2 Drums

Alesis Crimson II Hi-Hat Issue Part 2  Reason 2 Drums

Alesis Crimson II Hi-Hat Issue Part 3 MODO DRUM

EDIT:
After re-checking around to see if anyone has come up with a permanent solution over all the time that's passed since this issue was brought to everyone's attention I ran across that apparently you can set the Hi Hat to 009 and the Crimson II (DM10 MKII Studio is mapped the same) Hi Hat will then send individual MIDI Notes....It is under the Alesis Knowledge Base for Logic Pro X

Alesis Crimson II | Mapping the Crimson II Hi-Hat in Logic Pro X

"Notice in the Default Assignments sections above, that the Hi-Hat Open and Hi-Hat Closed triggers both send a MIDI Message of #8 or G#-2.
Because of this any software will be unable to distinguish between the hi-hat open and hi-hat closed triggers.
Before we can map the functionality of the trigger, we must assign a different MIDI message to one of these functions.

    Press the Menu button on your module, then toggle down to Trigger and press Enter to enter the Trigger Settings menu.
    Use the knob to change the selected trigger to Hi-Hat.
    Press the Down button and select MIDI Note.
    Use the Data Dial (big knob) to change the assigned MIDI note.

In most cases, and for this example, MIDI note 009 (or A-2) will work.
   
From here, you have manually adjusted the MIDI assignment for the open Hi-hat within your module!
Your Open & closed positions will be sending  separate MIDI messages."


I don't know why the statement "In most cases" as later on the instructions go into actual mapping of the Software.
The only reason I can think of is there may have been a firmware change somewhere along the timeline of the Crimson II.

I would try setting the Hi Hat to MIDI note 009 in the module and see if that does work and the module does send individual notes...the rest is remapping the Software/Vst or using MIDI learn if the Software/Vst has that feature.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 02:15:29 PM by Chaser »

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2021, 04:31:55 PM »
This is a wonderful and comprehensive answer with a clear workflow. Big thanks! I will dive in it as soon as i can and be back to evaluate the solution that worked for me. Seems like some reading must be done. You really are a great help and I am so glad i found this forum.

With kind regards, Coba Biltoni

Offline Chaser

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2021, 05:26:21 PM »
This is a wonderful and comprehensive answer with a clear workflow. Big thanks! I will dive in it as soon as i can and be back to evaluate the solution that worked for me. Seems like some reading must be done. You really are a great help and I am so glad i found this forum.

With kind regards, Coba Biltoni

Hopefully it works...post if it does or does not.
I remember years ago there was a user on the Alesis Get Satisfaction Forum (now Defunct) and he wrote a small app/program for using the Crimson II Hi Hat in Logic as he had the same issue with MIDI note tied together.I don't remember seeing the link I posted from the knowledge base so it may have been added at a later time , and the Alesis reps aren't/weren't aware that the Hi Hat open/closed was tied to one note.
I also don't know why MIDI note 009 is specifically posted before mapping in Logic Pro X as the standard MIDI note is 46 for open and 42 for closed and normally that would be the recommendation.
The Command/Crimson/II/DM10 MKII Studio/Forge are based on the Medeli DD650..just with different firmware.The modules have a GM Section (aka Percussion)..the Kit/Voice lists for all the modules should all be the same as the sample count listed in the product descriptions are the same.
I don't know why Alesis didn't add the lists to the downloads for each module.

The Crimson recognizes a Dual Zone Hi Hat but the only user with a Crimson II that checked, posted his module didn't support it.
You can check your firmware version to the one posted.

Alesis Crimson DUAL ZONE Hi Hat

Offline AlanK

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2021, 10:34:11 PM »
Hey guys, I just wanted to chime in as I had a similar incident and never figured out why it happened.. then reading this it's got me curious. I have the DM10 and I use Ableton with Addictive Drums. I was doing a cover and it starts with some hi-hat work and during the recording it sounded as it should be. When I processed the video later, I was baffled because the opening hi-hats were also coming across as open and it frustrated the hell out of me. And weird too because it was just the opening 16ths I was doing on the hats.. they functioned (sounded) perfectly fine for the rest of the take!

I know that when I first fire up the module and Addictive if I don't press down on the pedal then I'll just get closed hits (kinda useful sometimes to practice double kick and be on the hi-hat with a closed sound). Then as soon as I stomp the pedal closed it activates the full spectrum of the hats. I've done dozens of videos/recordings with the same setup and this was the only one where I had the hats closed and they came out sounding open and I've never spent time recreating it to see if it would happen again.. and since have improved my hat's reactivity anyways so maybe it was one random instance where I changed something unknowingly or maybe there was a glitch, loose cable, who knows.

Just thought I'd add that similar outcome to your post. :-)
DM10X with Addictive Drums 2, Pro X hi-hat, 4 crashes, foam cone conversion w Roland mesh heads, Laurin Drums snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Mapex 2 legged hi-hat, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2021, 07:08:15 AM »
Ha guys, back with a little update. Seems that both of the suggestions helped. The midinote change (8---->9) did not as it changed the open hihat in a bell tip sound... :(. The tip of AlanK was a wake up call. When I start the module and have my foot already on the pedal (he.. i am driving a clutch car also so old habits) things go wrong untill i lift and press again. If i keep the pedal down the whole yourney  it sounds okay in the monitoring but when play back is started... ai ai...mayhem all over.

The kindful provided file by Chaser for AD2 worked like a charm... had to reverse the hihat cc inside of AD2 but that was just a minor issue. AD2 is my main software (more than enough useful sounds for me...all better than the module sounds...sorry alesis) so i am glad to got a working procedure. Perhaps ask for a new years raise and buy a better module. If thats posible. Think i can find that sort of answers in this huge repository. Thanks again and have a nice xmas and stay safe! :)

Best wishes from the Netherlands.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 07:10:48 AM by coba »

Offline Chaser

Re: How to set up my hihat (crimson 2 se set) to work properly in vst
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2021, 12:39:54 PM »
Ha guys, back with a little update. Seems that both of the suggestions helped. The midinote change (8---->9) did not as it changed the open hihat in a bell tip sound... :( .

It worked as it was supposed to... 009 is Bell Tip in AD2...you would have to reassign in the Piano Roll-Key/MIDI map to the articulation you want.
Since it is for Hi Hat open you would assign/drag HH Open (A,B,C or D etc) from the center menu to the  Piano Roll-Key/MIDI map
If you want different Hi Hat open/closed articulations (there are many in AD2..tip ..shaft..HH bell up to 4 ranges) this means you aren't stuck with just a CC Hi Hat and you now have the option to set the Hi Hat as 1/2 open etc.
The important thing to note is it worked and the Hi Hat would send separate MIDI notes for open and closed.That is the solution Crimson II users have been looking for....Did you save a user kit with the 009 note and/or did the module retain 009 for open and 008 for closed when powered off then powered on?

Quote
The tip of AlanK was a wake up call. When I start the module and have my foot already on the pedal (he.. i am driving a clutch car also so old habits) things go wrong untill i lift and press again. If i keep the pedal down the whole yourney  it sounds okay in the monitoring but when play back is started... ai ai...mayhem all over.

I don't know if AD2 Auto-Calibrates the Hi Hat at startup or if pedal position changes it at startup.You should always power on a module with the pedal up.
The Key/MIDI map I provided is for a CC Hi Hat,...tied to one note.
I don't know exactly how AD2 determines if the same note is open or closed for the default pedal position.
Some Software/Vst (like Session Drummer) have the Hi Hat CC4 range from totally closed at 0 to fully open at 127..just like Velocity ranges...the Realhat is opposite...0 is fully open..127 closed

Quote
The kindful provided file by Chaser for AD2 worked like a charm... had to reverse the hihat cc inside of AD2 but that was just a minor issue. AD2 is my main software (more than enough useful sounds for me...all better than the module sounds...sorry alesis) so i am glad to got a working procedure.

As mentioned above..the Key/MIDI map I provided is for a CC Hi Hat ..tied to one note.
Most of the software/Vst do not allow a CC Hi Hat tied to one note and you have to assign a note to open and closed which typically is 46 and 42,some software/Vst have entirely different notes for the Hi Hat (example..EZDrummer has different MIDI mapping for each Kit.)..some modules send notes for the edges(open and closed if dual zone) or a 1/2 open note (Crimson II does not)
The Crash Cymbals (Bow and Edge) in the Crimson II are also tied to one note.
AD2 does not support dual zone cymbals but you can assign a Flexi ..stack Instruments etc etc.The Crimson II module sends aftertouch...if your cymbals don't choke when using other software/Vst you will need to set the cymbal choke to aftertouch as the Crimson II module does not send choke notes.
In AD2 go under the Cymbal Chokes TAB  you'll see I "checked" the aftertouch boxes.

XLN Audio ADDICTIVE DRUMS 2 Manual

Quote
Perhaps ask for a new years raise and buy a better module. If thats posible. Think i can find that sort of answers in this huge repository. Thanks again and have a nice xmas and stay safe! :)
Best wishes from the Netherlands.

If you plan on only using software/Vst look into the eDRUMin

EDIT:
Added attachments, Manual Link
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 03:06:14 PM by Chaser »