Author Topic: Odd issues with cymbals  (Read 1563 times)

Odd issues with cymbals
« on: June 04, 2024, 02:57:03 PM »
I just bought a used Crimson kit (original, not II) and am not sure if my cymbals have problems, the wires/module does, or if it's just some with me or my settings. I've go the 14" DMPad Ride and 12" DMPad Crash.  I can't get anything other than the main sound to trigger on either, nor can I get the choke to work.  To troubleshoot, I tried the below.  I'm really confused because both the cord and cymbal aren't acting as they should.  Please help if you can:

-  Swapped cord with a dual zone drum that's working, but the cymbals only triggered the main zone
-  Plugged cymbal cable I to dual zone drum, but only main zone would trigger
-  Touched the tip and middle of the plug (works to trigger both zones on drum plug), but only the tip triggers anything
-  Adjusted sensitivity settings for all zones, with no impact

Offline Chaser

Re: Odd issues with cymbals
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2024, 04:34:19 PM »
I just bought a used Crimson kit (original, not II) and am not sure if my cymbals have problems, the wires/module does, or if it's just some with me or my settings. I've go the 14" DMPad Ride and 12" DMPad Crash.  I can't get anything other than the main sound to trigger on either, nor can I get the choke to work.  To troubleshoot, I tried the below.  I'm really confused because both the cord and cymbal aren't acting as they should.  Please help if you can:

-  Swapped cord with a dual zone drum that's working, but the cymbals only triggered the main zone
-  Plugged cymbal cable I to dual zone drum, but only main zone would trigger

Welcome to the Forum !

Tom Inputs are Piezo/Piezo type triggers..
Cymbals are Piezo/Switch.Bow=Piezo..Bell=Switch..Edge/Choke=Switch.and use membrane switches along with the Piezo..

Tom Inputs are Not Compatible with Switch Type Triggers (Edge/Bell) nor do they support the Choke Function..
ALL Modules are like this (Exception..Yamaha which has switch on some snares/Tom rims) otherwise Cymbals must be used in Cymbal Inputs or they will not fully function...just the Bow will trigger.

The Original Crimson (Medeli DD650) uses a DB25 Trigger Harness and came with a 12" Hi hat.. 12" dual-zone chokeable crash and a (single cable) three-zone (bell, bow and edge) 14" ride.

I don't have or used DMPads for over 10 years so I can't remember if the Single Cable Ride had a Choke strip..it should.
it is/was not mentioned (ALL Features typically are) in the Product Description nor on the cut sheet..the Dual Cable Model did.
There were earlier DMPads that either had a Choke strip or didn't..DM10 users it was common to get them mixed up and the cymbal with choke only worked on a specific port.

"The Perfect Feel and Premium Hardware:

The Alesis Crimson Mesh Kit is a five-piece electronic drum kit featuring exclusive Alesis mesh drum heads (Patent Pending) that delivers the perfect feel and expression. It features an 8-inch kick, 12-inch dual-zone snare, two 8-inch dual-zone rack toms and a 10-inch dual-zone floor tom, along with a 12-inch hi-hat with pedal, 12-inch crash with choke and 14-inch three-zone ride. A premium chrome 4-post rack with separate double-braced snare stand keeps everything solidly anchored, no matter how hard you play!"

There were (2) DMPad 12" cymbals..one is single zone only NO CHOKE (labeled hat)..the other is Dual zone with choke...(labeled Cymbal)
The Hi Hat is only single Zone..NO Choke..so make sure the 2 are not mixed up.
The Crimson Module also supports a Dual Zone Hi Hat..you have to activate it.

Connect the Cymbals to the proper cable...they should be TRS
go into the module and for the Crash turn the Bow OFF (sensitivity-1) to see if the Edge is working.
You will see -EG suffix in the menu Window
Same with the Ride..turn the Bow down ..until off (sensitivity-1) and see if the other zones trigger.

The procedure is the same as with activating the 2nd zone (Edge) for the Hi Hat as shown in this Topic

Alesis Crimson DUAL ZONE Hi Hat.

If the issue remains you may have bad or intermittent edge switch..
It is possible to Test triggers for Medeli DD650 Modules

Module Tests
press and hold Down+Up buttons simultaneously while powering on ..you'll see the Alesis splash screen..Firmware Version .. "Booting"..
Then you'll see the main menu ...use the up/down buttons to maneuver...press down to pad test which is #2...press enter
There will be a PAD... and Value...

For Example:
To test the Hi Hat Pedal..
The "Pad" will show which trigger is being hit or in this case pressed..the "Value" will show if the hit or in this case pedal pressure/position is detected and what velocity...press the pedal the "PAD" should show HH-P.. at different pressures and speeds press the pedal..a hard sharp jab should show around 127..it will vary the test is just to confirm the pedal is working...then "Exit"..go to 8 erp..the module will power down.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 04:52:35 PM by Chaser »

Re: Odd issues with cymbals
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2024, 11:07:04 PM »
Thanks so much for all the info.  Knowing there was probably no issue with the wires, I focused on playing with the sensitivity and how I was hitting it, and was able to get everything working.  I read the post about the dual zone hi-hat capability, but looked at my high hat plug, and it's only TS, not TRS.  Would a different harness maybe unlock that option?  I also have the 1/8" plug for the HH pedal with the open/closed pedal.  Do you know if my module can use the variable pedal trigger options?

Offline Chaser

Re: Odd issues with cymbals
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2024, 12:37:12 PM »
Thanks so much for all the info.  Knowing there was probably no issue with the wires, I focused on playing with the sensitivity and how I was hitting it, and was able to get everything working.  I read the post about the dual zone hi-hat capability, but looked at my high hat plug, and it's only TS, not TRS.  Would a different harness maybe unlock that option?  I also have the 1/8" plug for the HH pedal with the open/closed pedal.  Do you know if my module can use the variable pedal trigger options?

ALL of the Medeli DD650 Re-Brands..Command..Crimson..Crimson II..DM10 Studio MKII..Forge included the exact same DB25 Trigger Harness.
ALL 1/4" (6.5mm) cables and ALL TRS except for the Kick and Hi Hat Controller which are TS.
The difference between Modules/Models is/was the Firmware...Nearly all of the DD650 Re-Brands have been discontinued except the Command Mesh and the Guitar Center Editions (SE) which you won't find for sale/available on the Alesis or InMusic Store sites.

The DB25 Trigger Harness you described is for the Nitro...it is not the correct harness...and the DMHat V2..1/8" (3.5mm) connector and labeled Open/Closed is listed as "Continuous/Variable "TYPE" pedal..and has been reported as incompatible.
However I tested both the Crimson and Crimson II and the DMHat V2 Pedal does work..partially..
Chick..Splash..Open..Closed..nothing in between Open/Closed
The Medeli DD650 Re-Brands all used the Realhat Continuous/Variable pedal..not to be confused with the DMHat V2 Continuous/Variable "TYPE" pedal that came with the Medeli DD512 re-brands (Nitro/Surge).
The Realhat will provide full range based on the combos/samples in the module..1/2 open etc.

The Nitro Harness has shorter cables for a smaller non-standard rack,using larger triggers and placement on a larger rack the cables may not reach.

Was this kit "pieced" together?...There are Pro's and Con's when doing so.
Sometimes you save money..sometimes not..other times FREE is expensive as you spend more time/money trying to correct/fix which can be purchased cheaper outright.
There are a number of components that will "work" or operate with e-drums as they are based on similar principles..however it does not mean they will work well..
Typically DB25 Trigger Harness are similar , but this is usually all they have in common as the pinout's are different so you'll have the wrong triggers/zones being assigned the wrong input and in most cases partial functionality.
The Nitro (DD512) pinout may be close or similar as the DD650 since both are Medeli.
Occasionally some of the triggers match the labeled/cables..but usually not a 100 percent match.
The majority of the module harnesses are different overall and not interchangeable.

There are Topics/Posts in this Forum with Pinouts showing all the differences.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 12:39:02 PM by Chaser »

Re: Odd issues with cymbals
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2024, 03:09:06 PM »
Very interesting info.  I bought the kit used for a great deal, but it wasn't supposed to have been pieces together (though some pieces obviously were based on what you've said).  The plug issues you pointed out do indicate I probably have the wrong harness and I do have an open/closed pedal.  I did buy a  Goedrum GHC-AN to try to get partially open, but it doesn't seem to be giving it to me (maybe because of the mismatched harness thing).  What's the best way to test for that?  The other odd thing about the set was it came with the snare rack mounted instead of on a stand, so I know there was some oddness that happened in it's history.  All the drums and cymbals are what they should be, and the stand was the standard dimension chrome, so the rest of it seems OEM.  If I'm not planning to upgrade my hi hat now, do you recommend I get the correct harness now, or not worry about it if things are working?

Offline Chaser

Re: Odd issues with cymbals
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2024, 06:32:11 PM »
Very interesting info.  I bought the kit used for a great deal, but it wasn't supposed to have been pieces together (though some pieces obviously were based on what you've said).  The plug issues you pointed out do indicate I probably have the wrong harness and I do have an open/closed pedal.  I did buy a  Goedrum GHC-AN to try to get partially open, but it doesn't seem to be giving it to me (maybe because of the mismatched harness thing).  What's the best way to test for that?  The other odd thing about the set was it came with the snare rack mounted instead of on a stand, so I know there was some oddness that happened in it's history.  All the drums and cymbals are what they should be, and the stand was the standard dimension chrome, so the rest of it seems OEM.  If I'm not planning to upgrade my hi hat now, do you recommend I get the correct harness now, or not worry about it if things are working?
The GOEDRUM Controller uses a Slide Pot...

The Majority of Medeli Modules are Amplitude based..not Multi-Sample..
The DD650 Re-Brands Modules came with th Realhat Pedal...Variable Continuous..so smother transition than just an open closed switch.
There isn't actually a 1/2 open..just the articulation/sample decay gets longer as the Pedal comes up..
The closest to 1/2 open is just past closed pedal..slowly releasing pressure..just starting to change samples from closed to open..It's a very small window with a combination of Pedal/Bow with a very short decay..

The DD512 Nitro/Surge modules have a 1/2 open because the Module sends a MIDI Note for it and there are articulation/samples in the Sample base.There is also a specific pedal for them

You can check the Hi Hat "Combos"..
otherwise to have a 1/2 open Hi hat you would need to assign a User Sample as there isn't a 1/2 open in the Sample Base..
408-443... are  individual Hi Hat samples that make up a Hi Hat "Combo".
The Electronic and Brush Hi Hats don't have an Edge Articulation/Sample.
You'll see that there is in fact a Dual hat assignment for Bow and Edge..

I have found that by assigning individually...some hi hats sound better than the combos..there seems to be more transition

For Example
ACOUSTIC1 001
Hi Hat Combos is Acoustic 630..
Play it..Then assign 408 to the Hi Hat...410 to the Pedal and check the transition.
Add the Splash..change Hi Hat to Edge etcMix Match with others..
Also...when individually assigning you have Volume Control over each..whereas when using the Combos you change Volume it auto applies to all.

408 14 Acoustic Hi-hat
409 14' Acoustic Hi-hat Edge
410 14'' Acoustic Hi-hat Pedal
411 14'' Acoustic Hi-hat Splash

NO 1/2 Open

COMBOS
ACOUSTC 630
FUNKBAND 631 
STANDARD 632
JAZZ 633
JAZZ BRUSH 634
ROCK 635
888  636
909 637
DANCE 638
MARIMBA 639
VIBRA 640
INDIAN 641
AFRICAN 642
LOFI 643

You can see all of the samples listed in the Medeli DD650 User Guide pg 30-31..The Alesis Guide Doesn't list them.

NOTE:
There is a Vibraphone C3 that starts at 543 that is not in the DD650.
From that point the instruments shift up 1 for all of the remaining instruments.


« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 10:32:25 PM by Chaser »