Author Topic: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)  (Read 30306 times)

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2012, 05:01:51 PM »
That module mount looks way different, and  better than mine.
Are you sure? This one is cheap plastic..

I have bought an extra generic metal mount for my volume knob (Alesis, Roland etc all use the same mount, and thus you can get it anywhere) - I think I'll use the metal mount for the module - it is heavier..
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline gorgatron

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2012, 07:48:28 PM »
okay, so i'm now preparing to gather materials to do a slightly less extensive dampening job on my DM10 Studio's rack. i'll be using something else other than the pope foam as you've also suggested.

at the moment, crosstalk isn't much of an issue. as i've mentioned before (though perhaps in another thread). i've angled my tom pads from the opposite direction, but at a very similar angle/tilt, which along with the recent re-configuring of my module has reduced crosstalk to almost zero. in short, i should be able to discern if there are any very noticeable differences. the one exception being that i still have the stock heads. so, even if i still have an occasional issue with crosstalk, it won't be until i've converted the heads that i'll be able to say 100% which was the most effective and important factor leading to crosstalk reduction/elimination. i chose dampening before changing heads simply due to cost. going about it in these steps, however, should help shed light on the effectiveness of each process in eliminating crosstalk. i'm sure the end results will pretty much look the same, as they should, but documenting them one-by-one may provide food for thought. who knows? i'll report back on it once i've made the modifications and have played around long enough to note any differences with authority. 8)
Alesis DM10 Studio - modified Trondster dampened rack, Hellfire mesh head conversion on toms and kick, converted 1971 14" Ludwig 303 snare w/ aluminum shell - cone + rim piezo conversion; alternate between Stock and Blue Jay Roms, BFD2, Reaper, Reason 6.5

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2012, 11:49:18 PM »
You could also try converting a single pad, for example starting with the snare pad, and see if you like it. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline gorgatron

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 05:27:53 AM »
You could also try converting a single pad, for example starting with the snare pad, and see if you like it. :)

yeah, i've thought of that, actually, when i was working out what to do and when. as you well know (lol) certain realities pushed me towards switching to picking up a different virtual drum kit software (being vague on purpose here, i'm sure i've mentioned it a million times), which lead to picking up an inexpensive DAW, thus sucking down the cash i would have used to make mods or do something else to improve the kit. as i think i mentioned to you befor, my plan is to get a 12" pad for the snare, and use the 10" pad as my floor tom. the DM10 Studio as 2x8" pads for two floor toms, but i just use one, having removed the other. i figure its not bother, as long as i can add it if i can to expand. anyhow, the plan was to just do it all at once. though i speak cautiously in the thread here asking if people like their mesh heads, i only do so because a) i can promote with authority what i haven't experienced; and b) i do believe that if someone does the mesh dead conversion, the worst result result is that you have something you'll like or dislike in the same proportion. one may just find that there are improvements where there were once deficits, and vice versa. i'll get started once time and finances are right. i have a bass guitar project coming up that will eat up a week or so. i've never worked on a bass, and my friend has one he wants looked at. i figure if i can work on standard electric guitars, a bass shouldn't be too much different aside from the greater string tension and much longer neck length. not that much difference, and mostly mathematical.

okay, now i'm tired, and will have to post a short summary about dampening the rack of DM10 Studio.  ;)  there were several differences between the two kits which make it impossible to dampen. a lot of the hardware is different. i'll post something on it tomorrow, as if may be useful especially for other DM10 Studio kit owners who have considered your rack dampening procedures.
Alesis DM10 Studio - modified Trondster dampened rack, Hellfire mesh head conversion on toms and kick, converted 1971 14" Ludwig 303 snare w/ aluminum shell - cone + rim piezo conversion; alternate between Stock and Blue Jay Roms, BFD2, Reaper, Reason 6.5

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 06:53:53 AM »
(..)if someone does the mesh dead conversion, the worst result result is that (..)
Well - I think you already have the worst result right there! ;)

Joking aside - if you sooner or later plan to do a mesh conversion to all the pads anyway - why not go ahead and convert one of the 10" pads anyway. Then you'll get a really nice pad - if you are really happy with it; it could be your snare pad for quite some time, and you can put off buying a 12" pad for some time yet, or you could decide that it gets to be a tom, and order the 12" pad anyway.


As for myself, I decided long ago that I wanted to buy another 3rd party snare drum, maybe a Roland or whatever, but after I mesh-converted the pads, I discovered that the 10" pad was that good that I didn't necessarily want to change anything after all. :)


In the end, I decided that I wanted an extra tom anyway, and I ordered an 3rd party drum - but the point still stands - mesh converting the 10" pads made them so much better - in my opinion, anyway. :)


So - if you have limited time and/or resources - I'd recommend mesh upgrading the pads before making major rack modifications - apart from the simple ones, like angling toms and cymbals. :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 06:55:35 AM by Trondster »
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline gorgatron

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 06:24:40 PM »
(..)if someone does the mesh dead conversion, the worst result result is that (..)
Well - I think you already have the worst result right there! ;)
lol

Quote
As for myself, I decided long ago that I wanted to buy another 3rd party snare drum, maybe a Roland or whatever, but after I mesh-converted the pads, I discovered that the 10" pad was that good that I didn't necessarily want to change anything after all. :)


In the end, I decided that I wanted an extra tom anyway, and I ordered an 3rd party drum - but the point still stands - mesh converting the 10" pads made them so much better - in my opinion, anyway. :)


So - if you have limited time and/or resources - I'd recommend mesh upgrading the pads before making major rack modifications - apart from the simple ones, like angling toms and cymbals. :)

thanks for the input. it's definitely food for thought. also, as i will post later tonight, i discovered that doing any sort of major rack dampening project on the DM10 Studio in the fashion you did with the DM10 Pro just simply isn't possible due to several factors. my options were quite limited, and i ended up taking materials back to the store to return them because of it. angling the heads and stuffing foam in the rack is about all one can do because of the different style clamps and cymbal stands. more on that later

it's cool to hear that after converting the 10" pad that you felt it was both big enough and sensitive enough to carry on as your snare. maybe the 12" pad won't be necessary, in a sense. then i can take my time deciding as to whether i want a different snare, or just a larger floor tom pad, which at 10", would be less expensive. i've priced the Roland heads over here, and the price for for 3-4 heads (not sure if i'll do all 3 8" pads) is roughly $110-150, which isn't that bad at all. i've seen a few other brands that were less expensive, but the Roland heads seemed to be universally liked, so they seem to be the safe bet. if you were going to convert your heads again, but with the knowledge you now have, would you have still converted the head on the kick drum? that's the only pad conversion i'm on the fence about.
Alesis DM10 Studio - modified Trondster dampened rack, Hellfire mesh head conversion on toms and kick, converted 1971 14" Ludwig 303 snare w/ aluminum shell - cone + rim piezo conversion; alternate between Stock and Blue Jay Roms, BFD2, Reaper, Reason 6.5

Offline gorgatron

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2012, 02:10:50 AM »
So, as i've alluded in my last two posts in this thread, i have some comments regarding applying Trondster's rack dampening formula to the DM10 Studio.
i'll just say right out of the gates, for you other DM10 Studio owners who might be considering these pretty straightforward mods for your rack: Don't bother unless you're a pedant or still have trouble with crosstalk even after proper module configuration or live somewhere with continuous geological activity.  ;)

this has nothing to do with the formula, but the many rack-specific differences between the DM10 Pro (the model Trondster owns) and the DM10 Studio.
you can, and i did, add foam to the to the *front* legs, and the horizontal bracing tubes. so, that is still and option. you can dampen the snare arm tubing, too. you can also use foam in the bases of the cymbal/hi-hat arms (though i don't know if this was in the original method from Trondster, i did it anyhow, since i had so much foam left due to miscalculation :-[ ). unless you apply enough force that would risk damaging the cap, you can't get the top caps of the *back* legs removed. when a mid-sized flat-head screw-driver didn't work, i just let it be.

the clamps of the DM10 Studio were made in such a way that it's basically impossible to add 2mm craft foam (or 0.5 mm craft foam) to the clamps. they are one piece, and come already installed on the bracing. they are removable, but only because they loosen a bit so you can slide them along with ease when adjusting you kit layout. unlike the the clamps on the DM10 Pro, you can't remove both screws and have the two halves of the clamp. i already had removed a clamp when i decided to no longer use the 2nd 8" pad (Perc 3), and checked it out after stuffing the frame with foam. to get the clamp back on the support arm with the extra 2mm of foam would have required enough force to either cause it to bend or break the clamp. plus it would be almost impossible to move/adjust after placed on the rack unless pried at the open ends with a screwdriver or something. so it was not an option.

the addition of foam to the cymbal arm joints is possible, but might be more trouble than it's worth. i didn't do so when i was doing the more tedious stuff. the arm construction between both models is not all too different, so it seems possible to add the draft foam, but since the DM10 Studio doesn't have the surge cymbals, you're not risking much by leaving the arms alone. i still have craft foam at the ready should i change my mind.

i did use the 2mm craft foam to use as a buffer between the module and the bracket, as is also pictured at the top of the thread.  i also held back a swatch of felt to use at the base of the l-bar, if the one-piece slam will allow it. i don't foresee 2mm craft foam being effective here.

i think that's it, aside from the obvious fact you can also convert the feet of the kick pad. i would have to agree with Trondster that angling the toms and adjusting the sensitivity and threshold settings are the three best tools to eliminate crosstalk. you won't be able to angle your toms as Trondster has displayed in his photo, but you can pull the brackets in, swing the toms the other way around and tilt them until you get the same effect, adjusting the sensitivity and threshold values a bit for fine tuning. at the moment, i rarely have any crosstalk or ghost hits (as i call them).  :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 02:25:06 AM by gorgatron »
Alesis DM10 Studio - modified Trondster dampened rack, Hellfire mesh head conversion on toms and kick, converted 1971 14" Ludwig 303 snare w/ aluminum shell - cone + rim piezo conversion; alternate between Stock and Blue Jay Roms, BFD2, Reaper, Reason 6.5

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2012, 05:40:55 AM »
if you were going to convert your heads again, but with the knowledge you now have, would you have still converted the head on the kick drum? that's the only pad conversion i'm on the fence about.
Yes, I am still glad for mesh converting my kick drum - it is much more quiet, and works great. Of course, I hardly have any experience using a "real" kick drum, so I don't know what it should feel like, but I prefer it to the standard mesh head.

But - the modifications I'm most happy about? Mesh converting the snare, adjusting the trigger parameters and angling the toms. In that order. :)


Anyhow: Here's a small update, or at least food for thought:
I have used craft foam as padding in several brackets and joints. But - when I reopen the joints several weeks later, it seems that the craft foam has been squashed more or less paper thin where it has been under pressure, and maybe it does not insulate that much against vibrations when squashed like that? I do not know. Maybe insulation of joints and brackets would be better with another material - some really thin neoprene, a more fancy kind of foam like Sorbothane or similar..
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2012, 07:21:18 AM »
I wish I had the space on my rack to angle the toms, even after doing a mesh conversion and re-tweaking all of the xtalk settings for the whole kit, the rim trigger settings were easily the the biggest culprits xtalk to the point where, by themselves, I had to set them to 5, and then with combination hits I unfortunately had to raise them to 7.

Will dampening the rack improve the xtalk on rim triggers? The pads and cymbals are all less than 5, with a lot of them at 0 or 1.

I also noticed that hitting the drum pad on the edge next to the rim (but not on the rim) usually triggers the rim (so I set zonextalk to 7), is there a way to improve this or do I just have to avoid hitting close to the rim?

Thanks
DM10(BlueJay)/DM8/iO, SD3; Shure SE215, Simmons DA50, Alto ZMX862, Focusrite Scarlett; Tama SpeedCobra, VF 7AN, Roc-N-Soc;
DIY: Tennis Ball Drum Riser, Cymbal Felt Beater, Footswitch Cymbal Choker[url]

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2012, 08:06:26 AM »
You just have to avoid hitting close to the rim, I'm afraid.
You could also try to decrease the sensitivity on the rim trigger and increase the threshold a bit.


Dampening the rack won't have much effect on crosstalk between the head and rim of the same trigger, but it could reduce the crosstalk between the rim and the other pads.
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2012, 02:40:19 PM »
I can't increase the threshold because the threshold is tied to both the rim and pad, and I don't want it to be any higher for the pad.

Anyway, the probably seems to have gone away, I guess I just needed to get adjusted to the slight change in the position of the pads, since I had to unmount all the pads and then remount them afterward, they're not in the exact same spot since I didn't mark anything.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 02:43:12 PM by soccerdude84 »
DM10(BlueJay)/DM8/iO, SD3; Shure SE215, Simmons DA50, Alto ZMX862, Focusrite Scarlett; Tama SpeedCobra, VF 7AN, Roc-N-Soc;
DIY: Tennis Ball Drum Riser, Cymbal Felt Beater, Footswitch Cymbal Choker[url]

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2012, 08:50:17 AM »
Great write up. I recently expanded our set and now running (2) DM5 Pro sets combined for a total of 24 triggers. Never had a problem with cross talk until now and tweaking the software helped but has not solved the issue. Looking forward to applying your techniques...
SETUP: (2) DM5 Brains, (1) Bass w/ Dbl Pedal, (1) Snare (2 Zone), (4) Toms, (2) Tims, (2) Congas, (1) HHat, (3) Crash, (1) Slash, (1) China, (1) Cowbell > UA-25EX > Dell XPS 9100 (2.80 GHz Quad Core i7, Windows 7 64 bit, 24GB RAM > Sonar

Offline Th3R00st3r

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2014, 01:37:22 PM »
Quote
"i think that's it, aside from the obvious fact you can also convert the feet of the kick pad. i would have to agree with Trondster that angling the toms and adjusting the sensitivity and threshold settings are the three best tools to eliminate crosstalk. you won't be able to angle your toms as Trondster has displayed in his photo, but you can pull the brackets in, swing the toms the other way around and tilt them until you get the same effect, adjusting the sensitivity and threshold values a bit for fine tuning. at the moment, i rarely have any crosstalk or ghost hits (as i call them).  "

Gorgatron,
My DM10 Studio is in route. From what I gathered from you post comment above that dampening the DM10 Studio isn't worth it and as long as you adjust the sensitivity, thresholds, and angling the pads so you are not hitting directly above the brackets should be enough. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly. Trying to get my plan of attack ready when it gets here on the 7th. I am giddy with excitement.  Thanks, you guys are awesome.
th3r00st3r-Alesis DM10 Studio w/mesh head conversion (billy blast 2ply) and snare stand.

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2014, 02:48:22 PM »
The main things in my opinion would be to perform a mesh conversion, angle the toms and adjust the trigger parameters - any rack dampening would be icing on the cake.
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Th3R00st3r

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2014, 10:49:35 PM »
Got it, Thanks! I will probably buy one mesh head cover (snare) to test it out. I more than likely will use the cone method as I am not too confident in my soldering skills.
th3r00st3r-Alesis DM10 Studio w/mesh head conversion (billy blast 2ply) and snare stand.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2014, 08:05:44 AM »
As for the rack dampening, I recently bought some vibration-dampening foam tape and put it on all my rack clamps. Stuff works like magic, and is relatively cheap! Putting foam inside the tubes isn't an option for me, as i've run all my cables through the tubes. The foam tape is a great alternative!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 08:28:47 AM by Stagecustom »
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2014, 05:19:36 PM »
As for the rack dampening, I recently bought some vibration-dampening foam tape and put it on all my rack clamps. Stuff works like magic, and is relatively cheap! Putting foam inside the tubes isn't an option for me, as i've run all my cables through the tubes. The foam tape is a great alternative!

By chance, do you have a quick tutorial on how you managed to insert the cables thru the tubing and how it exits?  And also with pictures of course  :)

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2014, 01:41:01 PM »
Hey L a r r y,
I'll snap some pics either tonight or tomorrow and post them here for you to see what i had all done.  :D
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2014, 11:02:34 PM »
Hey L a r r y,
I'll snap some pics either tonight or tomorrow and post them here for you to see what i had all done.  :D

Thanks when you get the chance...and I appreciate it.

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2014, 04:24:45 PM »
I tried uploading the pics but its not working. ill try again tomorrow.  :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
DM10 Pro kit, Mesh Heads, Quad Kicks, Dampened Rack, Extra Roland Crashes.

Offline Khes74

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2014, 03:11:44 PM »
Where to find 15mm feet in U.S.A?

Offline Trondster

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2014, 03:15:07 PM »
The feet do not have to be exact that size. Just get some bigger feet, and add washers to get the desired length. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Khes74

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2014, 04:22:48 PM »
The feet do not have to be exact that size. Just get some bigger feet, and add washers to get the desired length. :)

Thanks but I just don't exactly know where to find these feet. I checked Guitar Center and other music stores and found nothing about electronic drum feet nor speaker feet.

Offline JimmyB

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2014, 06:49:34 PM »
I got mine at ace hardware in the furniture hardware  section.
JimmyB

Offline vappicewins

Re: Rack tweaking/dampening (with pictures)
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2014, 01:00:56 AM »
Great thread Trondster, thank you!!  :)

I just bought a stick of 1/2" pipe foam and it slides right into my DM10X rack with no problem.  I do wonder about the hole left in the middle of the foam.  I was hoping that since the foam seems to not slide in either too easily or hard, it will do the job even with the hole in the center not filled?  I didn't really have to force it, but it didn't just drop in and it stays put and will not fall out.

Any ideas on that please?  I plan on trying to do all of the dampening that you and Gerdy have mentioned as I can afford it, and I can finish the inside of my rack this weekend if you guys think the hole in the middle is no big deal.

BTW, this is the same foam I'm going to use and try AHayden's ACE foam cone method again.  The huge 2" foam I had my brother pick up for me was just too large to work with (made for 2" iron piping inside walls) and I could not cut it to width consistently like I can with this thinner diameter.  But some is still in my kick trigger working like a charm with it's huge self!  ;)