More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O

[Hellfire]

I have gotten a couple of questions about chokable cymbals and the DM10 in the last week. More and more people are wanting the ability to choke more cymbals than the two that the DM10 lets you do. Well, if you have a DM10 and an Alesis Trigger I/O you can have nine single zone cymbals with choke with no problems.

- Set your Trigger I/O up for "PS" trigger types. Keep in mind you can't do this on input #4 of the I/O.

- Set each midi note for each zone on the Trigger I/O to midi notes not used on your inputs on the DM10. Each piezo and switch zones of each cymbal I will call a pair of midi notes. This is important.

- You will need to set-up a mute group in your DM10 for each pair of midi notes. The DM10 allows nine mute groups. Hence nine single zone chokable cymbals

- Set your piezo sound for each cymbal to the cymbal sound you want.

- Set your switch zones to any sound and set the Decay and Level to 1. Don't turn them to off or it will not work.

You should now have chokable cymbals that work every time. If you hit the edge of your cymbal it should not (let me repeat that) should not trigger the choke. The switch must be grabbed to work. I hope some of you guys are able to use this info. Remember you can access 35 more midi notes of the DM10 with external device like the Trigger I/O (see topic DM10 Expansion with Trigger I/O & ControlPad). So, you should have plenty of room to do this.

Side note: I'm hoping to do a video very soon of this very technique.

[Hellfire]

I thought this topic would have gotten a little more attention. Well, the info is here if you guys need it.

[Rev2010]

I've read your post in the past and kept it in mind. Definitely a great workaround. Was actually thinking of sending back my single zone crash and paying $20 more to get the one with choke strip and performing this procedure.


Rev.

[Guinness]

I like this idea, and have done it, but without the IO.  And doing it on the module itself means you (me) has to change every kit I play with this set up.  Not that I play a huge number of different kits, but...
 
I do expect Alesis to come out with a firmware upgrade to have perc4 be chokable.  That'd be grand. 
 
 

[Bobby@NEMS]

Interesting.  This is why I love forums like these :-)

[Jman]

Sorry for resurrecting an older thread. But it is new to me. I haven't been around much on the edrum forums in general, busy with too much junk.... I have checked back time to time to see if the new sound sets had been released for the DM10, but not having the module I had just assumed some things. I guess my biggest assumption was that most of the inputs would have the ability to be set up as PS inputs for chokable crashes. (My goodness, at least 2 chokable crashes!!!!)

Good idea though with adding the Alesis iO via MIDI to get more chokable crashes.

Man, not sure what the hold up is on Alesis getting hooked up on 3rd party sound sets....  Honestly I am one guy that throws dough out on edrum equipment even when I don't need it ... I would probably have a DM10 by now if they released the 3rd party sounds ...  I wonder how much the DM10 sales would increase if those were out .... must be something hanging the release as there is definitely consumer interest.

I'll try not to be a stranger... (thought I had posted here before .... been a member since Feb, 2010 .... I've gotten into a habit of reading waaaaay more than I post on the net) J

[DeeDubs]

Glad to read you here Jman!!..

I've been following your vids for a while and I appreciate what you've done as far as pushing the envelope in the DIY realm and (most of all) your attitude toward experimentation.

Welcome aboard!!!

~D

[Hellfire]

Sorry for resurrecting an older thread. But it is new to me. I haven't been around much on the edrum forums in general, busy with too much junk.... I have checked back time to time to see if the new sound sets had been released for the DM10, but not having the module I had just assumed some things. I guess my biggest assumption was that most of the inputs would have the ability to be set up as PS inputs for chokable crashes. (My goodness, at least 2 chokable crashes!!!!)

Good idea though with adding the Alesis iO via MIDI to get more chokable crashes.

Well, Alesis was actually Crowdsourcing DM10 OS 2.0 and that is one of the requests. If you like adding the I/O  for more chokable cymbals, you might like this topic as well: DM10 Expansion with Trigger I/O & ControlPad

Man, not sure what the hold up is on Alesis getting hooked up on 3rd party sound sets....  Honestly I am one guy that throws dough out on edrum equipment even when I don't need it ... I would probably have a DM10 by now if they released the 3rd party sounds ...  I wonder how much the DM10 sales would increase if those were out .... must be something hanging the release as there is definitely consumer interest.

Wow, you just missed all the excitment with that subject. Here's a couple links if you are interested: Alesis....where are the 3rd party sounds? or Custom Sound Sets, Alesis v.s. Pearl, Who will be first!

I'll try not to be a stranger... (thought I had posted here before .... been a member since Feb, 2010 .... I've gotten into a habit of reading waaaaay more than I post on the net) J

Better late then never. 

BTW, Welcome to the forum Jman.

[MechanEvil]

It's good that you're proactive with this kind of information exchange, Hellfire

I would really dig having thirteen cymbals, man. Ohhhooooowwww wowwwww.

- Reggae Mangle

[einarabelc5]

I have gotten a couple of questions about chokable cymbals and the DM10 in the last week. More and more people are wanting the ability to choke more cymbals than the two that the DM10 lets you do. Well, if you have a DM10 and an Alesis Trigger I/O you can have nine single zone cymbals with choke with no problems.

- Set your Trigger I/O up for "PS" trigger types. Keep in mind you can't do this on input #4 of the I/O.

- Set each midi note for each zone on the Trigger I/O to midi notes not used on your inputs on the DM10. Each piezo and switch zones of each cymbal I will call a pair of midi notes. This is important.

- You will need to set-up a mute group in your DM10 for each pair of midi notes. The DM10 allows nine mute groups. Hence nine single zone chokable cymbals

- Set your piezo sound for each cymbal to the cymbal sound you want.

- Set your switch zones to any sound and set the Decay and Level to 1. Don't turn them to off or it will not work.

You should now have chokable cymbals that work every time. If you hit the edge of your cymbal it should not (let me repeat that) should not trigger the choke. The switch must be grabbed to work. I hope some of you guys are able to use this info. Remember you can access 35 more midi notes of the DM10 with external device like the Trigger I/O (see topic DM10 Expansion with Trigger I/O & ControlPad). So, you should have plenty of room to do this.

Side note: I'm hoping to do a video very soon of this very technique.

Noob question, which two cymbals? Crash and Ride?

Why does the Hi-hat seems to be chokeable but isn't?

[Hellfire]

Noob question, which two cymbals? Crash and Ride?

Why does the Hi-hat seems to be chokeable but isn't?

Yes, the Crash and the Ride cymbals are the only cymbals that can be choked on a DM10 in the stock configuration.

To have the ability to choke requires two things. First a module that can recognize a choke function on a given input and second, a cymbal that contains the switch to act as a choke. Without either one, you can not choke the cymbal. Just because you have a cymbal with a choke switch on it, doesn't mean you have the ability to choke that cymbal trigger. It must be plugged into an input on your module that supports the choke function.

The choke switch may be built into the hi-hat (I don't know, because I don't own a DMpad hi-hat trigger) but if it is, that is most likely a manufacturing thing. It is easier/cheaper to produce one cymbal that functions as two different cymbals than to produce two different cymbal triggers. It is a money thing. I hope that helps.

[einarabelc5]

Noob question, which two cymbals? Crash and Ride?

Why does the Hi-hat seems to be chokeable but isn't?

Yes, the Crash and the Ride cymbals are the only cymbals that can be choked on a DM10 in the stock configuration.

To have the ability to choke requires two things. First a module that can recognize a choke function on a given input and second, a cymbal that contains the switch to act as a choke. Without either one, you can not choke the cymbal. Just because you have a cymbal with a choke switch on it, doesn't mean you have the ability to choke that cymbal trigger. It must be plugged into an input on your module that supports the choke function.

The choke switch may be built into the hi-hat (I don't know, because I don't own a DMpad hi-hat trigger) but if it is, that is most likely a manufacturing thing. It is easier/cheaper to produce one cymbal that functions as two different cymbals than to produce two different cymbal triggers. It is a money thing. I hope that helps.

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

[Alesis But Seriously]

Hey guys,
do I get it right, that I need the combination of both the DM10 AND the Trigger I/O? So it wouldn´t be enough to use the DM10 with a proper software on the computer (like SD), you need the module to support choking itself?

Thx a lot in advance :-)

[Alesis But Seriously]

The DM10 supports 2 chokable cymbals, I know.

But is it possible, regardless of chokability, to install further cymbals with a choke strip, which are programmed to switch mode?

Because this would enable me, to use the other "non chokable" cymbals as 2-zone cymbals.

My idea right now: 16" Ride, 13" Crash with choke + 2 x 13" Crashes, programmed as 2-zone cymbals.

Thx,
best wishes!

[Hellfire]

The DM10 supports 2 chokable cymbals, I know.

But is it possible, regardless of chokability, to install further cymbals with a choke strip, which are programmed to switch mode?

Because this would enable me, to use the other "non chokable" cymbals as 2-zone cymbals.

My idea right now: 16" Ride, 13" Crash with choke + 2 x 13" Crashes, programmed as 2-zone cymbals.

Thx,
best wishes!

Technically speaking yes you can do that. However, your switch zone will not have velocity and it may from time to time trigger when you don't want it to. I was able to get this to work, but some have had troubles. Here's a video I did showing this very idea with a Surge and a Roland CY-6:

Alesis DM10 Dual Zone Cymbal Test

You could also use this idea to choke a cymbal as well. It would require you to set up a mute group, but again users tend to have reliability issues with this set-up.

[Alesis But Seriously]

Okay, thanks a lot, Hellfire! :-)

But this reminds me of something, which I forgot thinking about before: Does anyone know, which combinations of sounds/samples from the DM10 crash sounds are sensible and practical for assigning to a "dual-zone" crash? :-)

Tomorrow I´m gonna check it out anyway, but in case, somebody knows..? :-)

Best wishes!

[Alesis But Seriously]

Well, indeed... With the mute groups you have problems in terms of reliability.
Is there no way to lower the sensitivity of the choke-strip that far, that it only triggers, if you grab it really hard, but not, when you are hitting the cymbal?

Since that´s exactly the problem, that sometimes a hard enough hit triggers the "choke" :-D

EDIT: The choke-strip is actually a switch BUT there seems to be a difference, wheter I set it so SWITCH or PIEZO. Maybe it´s not true, but with PIEZO mode set, there is more room for setting sensitivity properly.

My current test:
13" Surge Cymbal, choke strip set to PIEZO, Curve linear, sensitivity 50 and I can hit the cymbal as hard, as I want, there happens no wrong choking. Only if I press it with my hand, it chokes! :-)

Maybe it´s strange, but it seems to work. Tomorrow, I´m gonna test it more thoroughly :-)

best,
Daniel

[Hellfire]

Well, indeed... With the mute groups you have problems in terms of reliability.
Is there no way so lower the sensitivity of the choke-strip that far, that it only triggers, if you grab it really hard, but not, if you are hitting the cymbal?

Since that´s exactly the problem, the sometimes a hard enough hit triggers the "choke" :-D

best,
Daniel

If you are using the DM10, no. That is because the DM10 is not programmed to handle a switch as a choke unless it is plugged into crash #1 or the ride input. It's treating the switch as a trigger-able zone in the other inputs.

If you are using the Trigger I/O connected to the DM10 DO NOT use the ride input on the Trigger I/O. It will act like the DM10's other inputs (meaning, treating the switch as a trigger-able zone). The rest of the inputs on the Trigger I/O will be fine (similar to crash #1 and the ride input of the DM10).

Here's why this is:

There are two ways to detect a switch. A drum module can either act instantly the switch is closed (which is what the DM10 and the ride input of the Trigger I/O does) or the module can wait and make sure the switch stays closes for a millisecond or so and then act (which is needed to determine if the switch is being used as a choke switch). Only the crash #1 and ride input of the DM10 has the ability to detect the switch be closed for more than a quick strike (like from a drum stick). On the Trigger I/O all inputs (except the ride input #4) sees a switch as a choke only. Which means you can't use a switch as a trigger-able zone on the Trigger I/O unless it is plugged into input #4 (the ride input).

I hope that make sense. It tend to confuse some people.

[Alesis But Seriously]

Thx al lot for the clarification, I think I got the point.
But whats your opinion on my post below?

The choke-strip is actually a switch BUT there seems to be a difference, wheter I set it so SWITCH or PIEZO. Maybe it´s not true, but with PIEZO mode set, there is more room for setting sensitivity properly.
My current test:
13" Surge Cymbal, choke strip set to PIEZO, Curve linear, sensitivity 50 and I can hit the cymbal as hard, as I want, there happens no wrong choking. Only if I press it with my hand, it chokes! :-)

Is it possible that the MODE makes a difference? It´s hard to describe, but when set to PIEZO, the choke-strip acts differently. It seems, that pressing the choke strip doesn´t show that much effect, but if you push the cymbal from above (stopping it´s vibration), that mute group becomes definitively activated. Or is this a kind of mirage and this behavior is related to something else?

Thx again! :-)

[Hellfire]

Thx al lot for the clarification, I think I got the point.
But whats your opinion on my post below?

The choke-strip is actually a switch BUT there seems to be a difference, wheter I set it so SWITCH or PIEZO. Maybe it´s not true, but with PIEZO mode set, there is more room for setting sensitivity properly.
My current test:
13" Surge Cymbal, choke strip set to PIEZO, Curve linear, sensitivity 50 and I can hit the cymbal as hard, as I want, there happens no wrong choking. Only if I press it with my hand, it chokes! :-)

Is it possible that the MODE makes a difference? It´s hard to describe, but when set to PIEZO, the choke-strip acts differently. It seems, that pressing the choke strip doesn´t show that much effect, but if you push the cymbal from above (stopping it´s vibration), that mute group becomes definitively activated. Or is this a kind of mirage and this behavior is related to something else?

Thx again! :-)

I don't know. Maybe Alesis built in some kind of dual use in the pizeo setting. I know one thing for sure. I'm now going to experiment with what you just stated above.

If I had to guess, It might just be a happy accident. Sometimes grounding out a piezo zone sometime can trigger it. That may be what's happening here.

[Alesis But Seriously]

:-) Do that, maybe you get different results, than me. I also went on testing and realized a few minutes ago, that in PIEZO mode the choke doesn´t trigger, even if you hit the cymbal hardly, but in return, grabbing the choke doesn´t work consistently anymore. I´m not sure, but I think, you have to grab it in a special spot in order to receive a choke.

Well, strange things... but one of your comments is certainly true: There is absolutely no consistency in this xD

[Hellfire]

Well, strange things... but one of your comments is certainly true: There is absolutely no consistency in this xD

And that's why I posted this topic about using the Trigger I/O with the DM10 to give the user a consistent reliable way to get more chokable cymbals on their set-up.

[Alesis But Seriously]

Well, sure.. if you want to spend money and add another module "just" for some new chokable cymbals there is no complaint about that. But I wanted to experiment, if there is a possibility to get it working with the DM10 alone.

But we´ll see... I´m thinking about the I/O anyway, because my Pintech RYC-100 does not work properly with the DM10, but with the Trigger I/O it would.

[DRIVE]

sweet, i just bought the IO and i havent a clue on how to use it.  ill keep this thread in mind for sure.  have i mentioned how awesome this forum is?!?!?


its awesome.

[inconn]

So. My millenium mps 200 cymbal pad (the crappy one) started emitting a loud pitched buzzing noise everytime when struck. I tried dismantling it as I thought something in the trigger got dislodged.

When I removed the cover I found out I broke 4 out of 9 screws holding the cover over the trigger. I guess I'm a heavy hitter
But even with the cover removed, the buzzing is still there. Something must have broke off INSIDE the plastic body of the pad. It's really unnerving and loud.

So then I went online and found myself a nice used chokable MPS 400 pad (17€ with shipping XD), and it's on its way. I'm wondering is there any way to rearrange the inputs so I can get it chokable?

I'm playing thru Reason + VSTs 97% of the time, so maybe the modules limitations don't apply?
Hey, I can dream