Author Topic: Random triggers while kit is idle  (Read 1349 times)

Offline linuxdrummer

Random triggers while kit is idle
« on: February 28, 2016, 11:12:34 AM »
As I sit here typing this, every minute or so, I hear a very faint splash cymbal.  That's the #4 tom rim.  From time to time, I get the #3 rim, and more rarely the #3 head.  Those three triggers just generate random little signal blips every so often, for no discernible reason.

I asked Alesis about this, and never heard back.  I spent some time researching how piezos work, and I can't think of any reason for this.  I diddled and piddled and twiddled all kinds of settings in the module, and didn't get anywhere.  I did some research to see if this is a common problem, and didn't really turn up anything.

Since I finally got around to joining this forum where I've been lurking for a month or two, I decided I might as well ask here.  Maybe someone knows how I can give these triggers the exorcism they need.

Offline Legal

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 12:37:35 PM »
Honestly, if you messed with all the trigger settings and such and are still having the issue, I would try setting the kit back to factory default and if that does not work, I would RMA the drum module.

Offline AlanK

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 02:03:03 PM »
Hi Linux, I was getting a similar ghosting from one of my drums too for a while.. I could be sitting there in silence, not touching a thing, and every 3 or 4 seconds there's be a doyng-doyng-doyng.. like a slight tap on one of my toms.. sometimes it was a ting on the ride.. drove me nuts. I spent an hour adjusting xtalk settings and thresholds on the toms, tom rims, and ride, and eventually got it to stop. I think the real culprit in my scenario was the floor toms... they're big, are hanging heavy off the rack and slight movements reverberate along the whole rack and those heavy 12" toms (on my DM10X) rock up and down a bit, so I'm sure they are causing the piezo to pick up the vibration.
I've tried setting the clamps so they're mounting from the far side of the rack so the drum doesn't reach out so much on the inside toward me.. kind of changes the amount of weight reaching out over from the mount so it's not "dangling" as much. Seem to have it under control but the tradeoff is I don't have those two lower toms exactly where it's comfortable to hit them.. seems like an ongoing battle with rack position to get things placed where I can reach. I have a dual concert tom stand.. was tempted to try using it for the toms instead of hanging them on the rack.. might try it someday.
DM10X with Pro X hi-hat, original hat used for 3rd crash, 682 white mesh cone conversion, Laurin Drums 12" snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Tama saddle, Panasonic noise cancelling headphones, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline rhysT

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 09:07:07 PM »
As I sit here typing this, every minute or so, I hear a very faint splash cymbal.  That's the #4 tom rim.  From time to time, I get the #3 rim, and more rarely the #3 head.  Those three triggers just generate random little signal blips every so often, for no discernible reason.

I had a similar issue with my DM10 Mesh kick pad and eliminated it by increasing its Threshold level in the trigger settings.

Offline Trondster

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 09:42:01 AM »
Typically too high sensitivity and/or too low threshold.
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline linuxdrummer

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 11:31:49 AM »
Thanks for all the input guys.  You helped me get my thinking straight on this diagnosis.

I already tried moving the pads around, and the problem stayed with the #4 tom rim (primarily).

It's not caused by vibration, because it would be triggering a lot more often while I'm playing than it does at idle.  That clearly isn't the case.  If anything, it triggers less often while I'm playing.

There is no Threshold setting for any of the rims.  That setting is only for the heads.

I conducted a new experiment.  I can silence these notes if I get the sensitivity low enough, but when it's set that low, I can no longer trigger the rims independently.  At these low settings, I have to hit the rim hard enough to dent a hickory stick in order to trigger anything, and I don't see any possibility of adjusting the crosstalk far enough to compensate for that.

Offline linuxdrummer

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 12:23:35 PM »
Fascinating.  I left those rim triggers set at 0 sensitivity, and I started getting random notes on other triggers.  I never got a random fire on the ride before today.  Turn the rim sensitivity back up, and the ride fire goes away.

I can't think of a mechanical explanation for this one.  My drum brain has some bad neurons.

Offline linuxdrummer

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 01:06:01 PM »
Or does it?  Another thread I was skimming just reminded me that these things are not magical, but just piezos, stupid.

So I jacked the tom in question directly into my mixer.  After figuring out which side of the splitter was the rim, I hooked it to a VU meter.

Well there you go.  I can make the VU meter jump by ripping a good fart 10' away from the thing.  That particular pad is physically closest to me in the room, and I bet the piezo is aimed right at me.

Now that I look at this, I see that there is almost no usable range to this signal if you hit these things like drums.  If you breathe on it, it registers.  If you give it a gentle tap, it flies up to -8 dB.  It doesn't take much of a hit to peg it out at 0 dB, and that's why there is no difference between a firm hit and a power hit.  0 dB is 0 dB.

Educational.

Offline Trondster

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 05:09:43 PM »
The threshold setting for a pad is for both the head and rim of the pad.
Increase the threshold for your tom 4 pad.

And no - the output from a piezo is not interpreted directly as an audio signal - your volume meter experiments doesn't mean that much.

Read up on the trigger settings - start by reading the xtalk thread in the Drum Modules sub forum. You'll probably find it - educational. ;)


You'll want the sensitivity low - you want the volume bar in the trigger settings menu to only max out on your hard accents.
To combat crosstalk you'll want the threshold high - as high as possible without it interfering with your soft hits.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 05:19:01 PM by Trondster »
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline linuxdrummer

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 04:15:36 AM »
Thanks, Trondster, for smacking me in the face with the manual I didn't read very well.  Derp.

The kid has been idling for an hour or so, and I have captured 0 events.

Playing with the raw signal was still very educational.  The velocity curves make much more sense now that I understand what they're transforming.

Offline Shuffle

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 03:40:38 AM »
I have exactly the same issue with Tom 4 rim which would lead me to think there was a issue with the firmware. Even resetting back to factory doesn't stop it. I've messed around with the triggers and had no lasting luck. My gut says the module was really designed for 3 toms and they used a perc channel with maybe different dynamics to deal with Tom 4?

Offline AlanK

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 08:18:51 AM »
I kind of like that theory, Shuffle.

Although I've had similar issues with my tom 1 as well as tom 4.. usually I'll get the rim of tom 1 triggering tom 2 head and with tom 4 I'll get the rim either triggering the head or not triggering at all

I've had to crank up the rim sensitivity on both of those, and bring up xtalk send on the rims and bring up xtalk rcv on the heads nearby

One of these days I'll take off the heads and look to see if the wires to the rim piezos are loose, or where it's placed.. could be just bad QC at the factory, since sometimes I get a better response from a rim when I tap it on the far edge instead of the proximal one where you'd usually hit it on a tom.

I'd imagine with the snare it might be better if they had two to four sensors around the sides wired into one connection for better response to rimshots with right or left hand as well as cross sticking closer to 10 or 2 o'clock, depending on your handedness
DM10X with Pro X hi-hat, original hat used for 3rd crash, 682 white mesh cone conversion, Laurin Drums 12" snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Tama saddle, Panasonic noise cancelling headphones, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline Hellfire

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 08:28:38 AM »
Wait a minute. Normally this issue is fixed by increasing the "Threshold" setting and decreasing the "Sensitivity" setting. Have these setting been tried yet?

Heck, Trondster even states this. Fifth response to the topic.

Most that have this issue the Sensitivity is cranked up and there is almost no Threshold setting. Go into the Threshold for the zone that is triggering by itself and slowly increase the Threshold until the self triggering stops.

The only time this doesn't work is when there is a physical problem with the pad itself and the way to check that is to plug another pad into that input and see what happens.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline AlanK

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 10:52:25 AM »
LOL, Hellfire, I'm still half asleep!

I think I forgot to brush over the history of this thread, when I saw the post about the 4th tom being an afterthought I immediately recalled some issues I was having with my 4th tom rim, which reminded me of my 1st tom rim issue I had at one point and then I started spewing on how I resolved them.

Definitely not the way to fix the ghost triggering issue.. my bad   :-X
DM10X with Pro X hi-hat, original hat used for 3rd crash, 682 white mesh cone conversion, Laurin Drums 12" snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Tama saddle, Panasonic noise cancelling headphones, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline soccerdude84

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2016, 12:19:21 PM »
my snare does the same thing, every few minutes when the kit is idle it registers a hit

really annoying when you're editing an instrument with note chase on and the damn thing changes to the snare

sensitivity is at 35 and threshold is at 40
Dual Alesis Module Drum Set (DM10+DM8+Trigger iO), Dual Layer Tennis Ball Drum Riser
Shure SE215, Simmons DA50, Alto Professional ZMX862, Tama SpeedCobra, Vic Firth 7AN, Roc-N-Soc Original

Offline soccerdude84

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 07:11:53 PM »
New discovery: I unplugged the cable from the snare and left it idle, to see if it would still trigger; after  about 5 minutes it triggered, so I'm thinking there must be something wrong with the module.
Dual Alesis Module Drum Set (DM10+DM8+Trigger iO), Dual Layer Tennis Ball Drum Riser
Shure SE215, Simmons DA50, Alto Professional ZMX862, Tama SpeedCobra, Vic Firth 7AN, Roc-N-Soc Original

Offline AlanK

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 09:15:19 AM »
Just a hunch, check to see if you've got an instrument programmed on Kick2

I did on one of my kits, and it was set to high sensitivity, high volume and the slightest movement of the frame or the kick pedal would trigger ghost notes

I don't even remember how that Kick2 was set but probably from a time I used a splitter on the kick input to add another pad somewhere and after I changed my setup and removed the splitter I must have forgotten to set the Kick2 instrument to None
DM10X with Pro X hi-hat, original hat used for 3rd crash, 682 white mesh cone conversion, Laurin Drums 12" snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Tama saddle, Panasonic noise cancelling headphones, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline Hellfire

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2016, 08:26:40 AM »
New discovery: I unplugged the cable from the snare and left it idle, to see if it would still trigger; after  about 5 minutes it triggered, so I'm thinking there must be something wrong with the module.

It could be a module issue, but I'm wondering how dry the area is where your drum set sits. I ask because in the winter I would sometime have this issue because it was too dry and static electricity would build up on the head zone. Ironically, I could trigger my snare by just touching the rim to discharge the static and then would would take about 5 mins for it to start triggering by itself again. This sounds like a what I call a "hanging zone" issue.

Both the rim and head really need to be grounded somewhat in dry conditions. A high value resistor between the tip and sleeve (and ring & sleeve) will normally fix the static issue if that's what is causing the problem.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Model Citizen

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2016, 05:48:26 PM »
Along these lines...

I have an issue that when I strike tom3, the module advances to the next drum kit. For instance, I have tweaked kit 63 to my tastes. Each time I strike tom3, it advances to kit 64, 65, 66 etc.


Offline rhysT

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2016, 08:46:21 PM »
I have an issue that when I strike tom3, the module advances to the next drum kit. For instance, I have tweaked kit 63 to my tastes. Each time I strike tom3, it advances to kit 64, 65, 66 etc.

Check out tom-3's head trigger function in the Ext Trig>Input menu settings and if it's indicating 'Next Kit' then change it to 'Trigger'. I'm using my DM10's Perc-4 head and rim triggers to increment kits up and down, to avoid extra menu switching when tweaking and comparing kits settings.

Offline Model Citizen

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2016, 10:39:05 PM »
I have an issue that when I strike tom3, the module advances to the next drum kit. For instance, I have tweaked kit 63 to my tastes. Each time I strike tom3, it advances to kit 64, 65, 66 etc.

Check out tom-3's head trigger function in the Ext Trig>Input menu settings and if it's indicating 'Next Kit' then change it to 'Trigger'. I'm using my DM10's Perc-4 head and rim triggers to increment kits up and down, to avoid extra menu switching when tweaking and comparing kits settings.

Many thanks!

Offline ClaudioCas

Re: Random triggers while kit is idle
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 09:16:16 PM »
Dear all,
It can be also a ground/eletric interference with Usb.
I have a dell notebook and when I connect DM10 I need to remove ground from notebook (ground lift) using a socket without ground.
After remove ground, my dm10 brain works correctly without generate false trigger in idle.