Author Topic: Advanced kit settings  (Read 3351 times)

Online AlanK

Advanced kit settings
« on: March 17, 2016, 09:24:07 AM »
I was wondering what you folks have tried in the way of advanced sound shaping for your kits. This is kind of a two part topic, so if anyone thinks it would be split that's fine. Here's what I've been wondering and wanting to compare with other's findings:

1) how are you getting the drum/cymbal sound that really does it for you? Are you layering two voices, are you layering a voice from another type of instrument with the first, ie. adding kick to a crash or just layering a snare that's snappy but has a resonance along with a soft, raspy full type of snare drum like the Blues or Deep voicing? what's your favourite tom set? I think to me, that's the area that frustrates me the most.. there isn't enough selection of tom types that I like.. but lately I'm starting to try layering ones like the Temp 8/10/12/14 with say the Ludwigs or the StSnares or Y MCAs etc

2) I've just begun to take some time to try out the FX sound shaping section and have been both impressed and frustrated both.. in some tests I've changed the compression type and settings, changed the room reverb, adjusted the panning to really pronounce a far left hi-hat and 1st crash, push the ride, last tom and 3rd crash way to the right and so on. I think room type and compression have been the settings that I've had some great success with turning a few of my user defined kits into really fun and more realistic sets to play. But I've also found that in the predefined options there are way more hollow, echo-y room settings than smaller venue options..I know I can pick one and then make fine adjustments so that I can have a medium room with some compression but not go overboard.

So my point is, I'm sure more than half of us have been loving and using our DMs for a while and created some of our own kits, modified some of the others, yet not really taken the hours/days that are necessary to explore the full gamut of features available to adjust to create a really kick-ass drum kit. Of those who have delved into the FX settings, or found some awesome layering combinations.. what's really doing it for you? What do you prefer? Are you into small room close mic? Do you get off on concert hall boomy sounds with a lot of overhead mic? What's worked for you?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 09:29:51 AM by AlanK »
DM10X with Pro X hi-hat, original hat used for 3rd crash, 682 white mesh cone conversion, Laurin Drums 12" snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Tama saddle, Panasonic noise cancelling headphones, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2016, 10:35:50 PM »
So my point is, I'm sure more than half of us have been loving and using our DMs for a while and created some of our own kits, modified some of the others, yet not really taken the hours/days that are necessary to explore the full gamut of features available to adjust to create a really kick-ass drum kit. Of those who have delved into the FX settings, or found some awesome layering combinations.. what's really doing it for you? What do you prefer? Are you into small room close mic? Do you get off on concert hall boomy sounds with a lot of overhead mic? What's worked for you?

There prob'ly aren't many new ideas for creating useful kit/instrument sounds that haven't been suggested on the forum already.
You could try mixing some Latin Perc sounds with the Tom sets on their A/B layers for a bit of variety.

Some of my useful DM10 kit/instrument sounds & combos are included in this topic: http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=4240.msg42481#msg42481

I've also created some 'kick-ass' DM10 kits by adding a Korg Pandora multi-effects module (with amp simulators, etc) for improved drum and cymbal sounds. There's more info about it in this topic: http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=6153.msg42936#msg42936

Currently I'm playing and tweaking the DM10 kits without the extra effects unit to find preferred combos of the built-in Compress and Reverb settings that sound OK for each kit. The attached list shows my current COMP settings (plus initial EQs), and for REVERB I'm mainly using: AmbBrite, RmSmlDrkon, Studio or SmBathRm with most kits. I've added extra Reverb in most of my Pandora effects combos and can easily select any 4 presets (from 200 available user programs).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 08:25:51 AM by rhysT »

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2017, 02:46:15 AM »
I've been trying to simulate a 'round-robin' effect for my DM10 snare head and rim sounds, and a recent topic on Vdrums forum got me thinking about adding an extra layer of some Random instrument sounds via Midi (without using the DM10 Chord mode).
https://www.vdrums.com/forum/advanced/tips-tricks/1145243-here-is-how-to-stack-sounds-on-td-modules-with-midi-and-perc-sets   
It highlights an advantage the DM10 has over the TD30 for multi-layering instrument sounds.

I'm using a cable between the module's Midi In and Out connectors to add more depth to the Toms and Kick sounds but the snare drum sounds had an apparent phase shift effect. This was improved by combining Random Lo or Hi Timbale instrument sounds with the snare head and rim zone sounds in my kits #81 to #173. I've assigned the Timbale sounds to spare Midi inputs #71 & #72 and set the Snare's head & rim Midi numbers to trigger those 2 spare Midi notes (via Ch 10).
If you want to try it with your own kits, simply setup the extra snare drum zone sounds in the EDIT INST> MIDI settings:
Snare head - change its Midi note from #38 to #71 (& assign Random: Lo Timb Rnd as the Midi #71 sound)
Snare rim - change its Midi note from #40 to #72 (& assign Random: Hi Timb Rnd as the Midi #72 sound)
FYI, the spare Midi notes settings are accessed by scrolling past the trigger input names on the EDIT INST page (refer to O/M pg10-12)
I mainly chose the random timbale sounds to add more dynamic variation to the snare sounds, but you could try any other preferred random sounds, etc.
The cymbals in my kits sound OK, although any kit instruments with unwanted latency effects can be deselected from Midi channel 10.   

I've also corrected some irregular Midi note assignments in my kits and the updated DM10 Sysex files are available at: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s4g979xfpic14ok/AADhHzPvGrWXOK1HYPbdBSqga?dl=0 

Btw, To enable or disable this effect easily and compare the change in instrument sounds for each kit, I inserted a switch in the Midi cable (as shown) and velcroed it onto the module. Another option is to simply switch the DM10 Midi Local Cont ON or OFF in the UTILITY>MIDI>INPT menu (refer to O/M pg-30). Btw, Midi Thru must be set to OFF (via the MIDI>OUT menu) to avoid unwanted signal data feedback.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 01:08:35 AM by rhysT »

Online Hellfire

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2017, 10:25:21 AM »
I've been trying to simulate a 'round-robin' effect for my DM10 snare head and rim sounds, and a recent topic on Vdrums forum got me thinking about adding an extra layer of some Random instrument sounds via Midi (without using the DM10 Chord mode).
https://www.vdrums.com/forum/advanced/tips-tricks/1145243-here-is-how-to-stack-sounds-on-td-modules-with-midi-and-perc-sets   
It highlights an advantage the DM10 has over the TD30 for multi-layering instrument sounds.

Awesome work!

It's a shame you were only inspired to think about this after reading something over at Vdrums.com. With all the advanced tricks that are listed here I would have thought this would have been inspired by some of the info already listed. Imagine using this same technique in conjunction with:

[DM10] 8 LAYER INSTRUMENT (From Single Trigger)

Using the Chord function would yield a much more "random" effect with the Random instrument sound you choose. I only say that because there can sometimes be a pattern to those random instruments.

I'm using a cable between the module's Midi In and Out connectors to add more impact to the Toms and Kick sounds but the snare drum sounds had an apparent phase shift effect. This was improved by combining Random Lo or Hi Timbale instrument sounds with the snare head and rim zone sounds in my kits #81 to #173. I've assigned the Timbale sounds to spare Midi inputs #71 & #72 and set the Snare's head & rim Midi numbers to trigger those 2 spare Midi notes (via Ch 10).
If you want to try it with your own kits, simply setup the extra snare drum zone sounds in the EDIT INST> MIDI settings:
Snare head - change its Midi note from #38 to #71 (& assign Random: Lo Timb Rnd as the Midi #71 sound)
Snare rim - change its Midi note from #40 to #72 (& assign Random: Hi Timb Rnd as the Midi #72 sound)
FYI, the spare Midi notes settings are accessed by scrolling past the trigger input names on the EDIT INST page (refer to O/M pg10-12)
I mainly chose the random timbale sounds to add a subtle variation to the snare sounds, but you could try any other preferred random sounds, etc.
The cymbals in my kits sound OK, although any kit instruments with unwanted latency effects can be deselected from Midi channel 10.   

I've also corrected some irregular Midi note assignments in my kits and the updated DM10 Sysex files are available at: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s4g979xfpic14ok/AADhHzPvGrWXOK1HYPbdBSqga?dl=0 

Btw, To enable or disable this effect easily, I inserted a switch in the Midi cable (as shown) and velcroed it onto the module.

Thanks for posting the information. Not many people travel down the road of advance techniques and tricks. Once a user masters Midi and how it works for drumming, the DM10 becomes one of the most powerful drum modules on the market.

It's a shame that most eDrummers just don't get midi. BTW, don't be surprise if (or when) the new Strike comes out that it will not have these upper level functions of the DM10. I tried to stress to Alesis early on about these type of functions but unfortunately most Alesis eDrummers didn't get it and there for never rallied behind the cause. They were too worried about only multiple samples of instruments (which is important) for a given trigger as if that and that alone is all that is needed for good acoustic drum emulation and its not. Time tell. I just wish these kinds of topics happened years ago with the DM10 and not at the end of its life when no one is really paying attention.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 09:01:50 AM »
Yeah HF, the "8 LAYER INSTRUMENT" topic shows the DM10's potential for multi-layering instrument sounds with the Chord function, although I just wanted to use 4 sound layers (2x A plus B) for any DM10 trigger input (except cymbals) by combining spare Midi# (71 or 72) with each head or rim zone.

Btw, I tried mixing the Lo Timb Rnd & Pan Timb sounds on A & B layers of Midi #71 for the Snare head to improve its dynamic range. I've mainly used the default settings for each random timbale sound and they allow fine tuning variations of the snare sounds, including their dynamic velocity pitch settings.

Also when tweaking settings (in Note Chase mode), the Midi kill switch is useful for selecting Snare Midi #38 & #40 (when open) or Midi #71 & #72 (when closed)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 03:53:08 AM by rhysT »

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 07:02:25 AM »
This is an update for anyone wanting to try some impressive snare sounds with 4-instrument layers in your DM10 kits, including mild chorus effect for extra variation. I reckon they're sounding much better than the standard 1 & 2 layered instruments, and it just requires the module's Midi In & Out sockets to be connected together.

You can simply load all my latest revised kits with the updated DM10-X2 Allmemory.syx file (from https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s4g979xfpic14ok/AADhHzPvGrWXOK1HYPbdBSqga?dl=0) or check out the info in my previous posts to assemble the 4-layer snare sounds, then add either Stereo or XOver Chorus effect to the head & rim sounds (at about level 40). Let me know if you want more details.

Btw, for the sake of giving my revised kits a name, the "DM10-X2" signifies a doubling of instrument layers when using the added Midi cable.

Online korakios

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 08:15:59 AM »
Hi,
While waiting for a used dm10x kit , I had an idea about the machine-gun side effect but don't know if it will work (since I don't have the module yet)
First of all I don't know yet ,if it is possible to change the sound of the extra instruments on dm10 (not the ones tied to trigger input but the others that are played thru external midi) and assign specific snare sound.If not please ignore the following  :-[
Concept: mute the original snare ,trigger a sequence of three notes that are assigned to 3 extra snares (which each sound varies a bit) ,turn local off, disable midi thru ,plug a cable from midi out to midi in.
Every time you hit the snare ,dm10 will trigger in sequence a slightly different snare sound. Because the sequence is fixed ,it would greatly help messing with velocity to pitch modulation.
Will try it as soon as I get my hands on dm10 module. (I have the DM-Pro module which is way more advanced ,but I can't afford keeping both modules)

Online Hellfire

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 03:07:20 PM »
Hi,
While waiting for a used dm10x kit , I had an idea about the machine-gun side effect but don't know if it will work (since I don't have the module yet)
First of all I don't know yet ,if it is possible to change the sound of the extra instruments on dm10 (not the ones tied to trigger input but the others that are played thru external midi) and assign specific snare sound.If not please ignore the following  :-[
Concept: mute the original snare ,trigger a sequence of three notes that are assigned to 3 extra snares (which each sound varies a bit) ,turn local off, disable midi thru ,plug a cable from midi out to midi in.
Every time you hit the snare ,dm10 will trigger in sequence a slightly different snare sound. Because the sequence is fixed ,it would greatly help messing with velocity to pitch modulation.
Will try it as soon as I get my hands on dm10 module. (I have the DM-Pro module which is way more advanced ,but I can't afford keeping both modules)

Cool idea! It's at least worth a try. It's this kind of stuff that makes edrums so damn interesting.  :D. Let us know how it works out.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 06:41:01 PM »
While waiting for a used dm10x kit , I had an idea about the machine-gun side effect but don't know if it will work (since I don't have the module yet)
First of all I don't know yet ,if it is possible to change the sound of the extra instruments on dm10 (not the ones tied to trigger input but the others that are played thru external midi) and assign specific snare sound.If not please ignore the following  :-[
Concept: mute the original snare ,trigger a sequence of three notes that are assigned to 3 extra snares (which each sound varies a bit) ,turn local off, disable midi thru ,plug a cable from midi out to midi in.
Every time you hit the snare ,dm10 will trigger in sequence a slightly different snare sound. Because the sequence is fixed ,it would greatly help messing with velocity to pitch modulation.

Cool idea! It's at least worth a try. It's this kind of stuff that makes edrums so damn interesting.  :D. Let us know how it works out.

I tried your concept with the DM10 Midi/Arpeggio function to trigger 3 extra midi notes in sequence by assigning the same snare sound/s (with different Dynamic Vel>Pitch settings). The original snare sound was required and I combined the Timbal Rnd sound on the B-layer/s to produce useful pitch variations. However the extra midi notes caused a slight phase shift effect and they can't be modified in the Chord or Arpeggio functions.
At least there's another option and let's hope Alesis include extra midi notes in the Strike module, as Slate have confirmed Mimic Pro will have at least 8 extra notes. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 04:37:17 AM by rhysT »

Online korakios

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 06:04:38 AM »
Hi rhysT,
Unfortunately I found out yesterday that DM10 does not have a true 'Local Off' mode and there is no way to cut the sound coming from triggers (although there is an off-topic workaround for true LocalOff, if anyone interested I'll make another topic) .

I assume the phase effect comes from double triggering the same note so you could try:
- Mute the original sound. (Set volume to zero)
- Send an Arp for notes 70 , 71 , 72
- Change the original snare's midi note to 73

Now it's just a matter of taste to make 4 variations of the same snare sound to notes 70-73
You could assign also some random sounds (which apparently you like so much!) to the B layers.

Enjoy 8)

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 12:05:08 PM »
I assume the phase effect comes from double triggering the same note so you could try:
- Mute the original sound. (Set volume to zero)
- Send an Arp for notes 70 , 71 , 72
- Change the original snare's midi note to 73

Now it's just a matter of taste to make 4 variations of the same snare sound to notes 70-73
You could assign also some random sounds (which apparently you like so much!) to the B layers.

Yeah that option makes sense, and it's easy to create realistic sounding snare combos using just one extra midi note for head & rim, with some extra random timbale sounds. I first explored this option while modifying the Clav Jam #5 kit and if anyone wants to check it out here's some typical layer settings to try tweaking:

Snare Head - Layer A: Snare voice#1 (Level=70 & S/tone=0) 
         - Layer B: Snare voice#2 or Timbal Rnd (Level=50 & S/tone=0)
         - Set Midi Note = 071
Midi note#71 - Layer A: Lo Timb Rnd (Level=70 & S/tone=+1)
         - Layer B: Pan Timb (Level=75 & S/tone=0)
         
Snare Rim - Layer A: Snare/rim voice (Level=70 & S/tone=0
         - Set Midi Note = 072
Midi note#72 - Layer A: Hi Timb Rnd (Level=50 & S/tone=0)

Btw, the other kit instruments should sound OK with a cable connecting the Midi In & Out together and Note Chase switched off. You can also try various Compress and Chorus FX settings for your preferred overall kit instrument sounds (refer to DM10 O/M p12-15).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 05:33:00 PM by rhysT »

Offline Chaser

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 09:21:12 PM »
Hey rhysT to help in your search for the Alex Van Halen snare project for the DM10
I have a large data base and equipment that I setup for Guitarists/drummers etc using loopers specifically the RC300..I can for the most part take a song and separate it to multi-track.
I actually built a large database online for a Guitar Tracks backing site for performing musicians..but had some Label Management come in and have it all removed...Little "too" real.
I built an entire lineup for a "One man Van Halen tribute band"..I'll give you more info at the top floor club.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 01:16:31 AM by Chaser »

Offline Dartanbeck

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 12:55:50 PM »
Wow rhysT... that's just plain cool. I'm interested in knowing how you installed that switch. I love the whole idea of using the random timbale... that's just perfect!

I play live more than anything, and my sound guy doesn't want me adding my own effects. But if I set it up so that my Snare sounds all use the same output, I could use an inline pedal (chorus, for example) for certain effects - say for solos, etc.,

I was impressed, right up front, with the sounds of the DM10 module. But as the original poster suggests, it gets difficult to find just that right sound for everything. Alesis did a wonderful thing by giving us the 2 layers, but an even better thing by giving us enough extra notes to do more advanced stuff like this!

My Bass drum uses a more wet, punchy main hit in A and the low-end thud of another in B. There's actually a really nice Bass for me in the module, but it plays havoc with the sound guy, so alas....

I may just add a bit of this 4 channel randomness effect to my toms too - on a really subtle level. Just play with it a bit.

Anyway, which leads are you cutting off with the switch? It would probably be a lot more clear once I get a MIDI cable and start messing around. It kinda blows not having a music store nearby. Two hour round trip to the closest  :-\

Sorry I'm so late to the game. It really blows that the DM10 module has become a thing of the past. While I am intrigued with the new Strike module, I'm even more interested in getting my hands on at least a couple more DM10 modules for safe keeping. 'Tis a beautiful bit of gear!

Cheers Alesis Drummers! This place is vast... having fun exploring!  ;)
Alesis DM10X Mesh

Online rhysT

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 09:31:58 PM »
I'm interested in knowing how you installed that switch. I love the whole idea of using the random timbale... that's just perfect!

I simply attached the midi kill switch to my Dm10 module with velcro and refer to the diagrams that show how it functions.

Also wrt to using layered random instrument sounds, I've tried creating a 'hard rock' snare drum by combining Pan Timb & Congo Bongo with snare drum sounds BL 65x14 RS & Pc3x14SnrOff.

Offline Dartanbeck

Re: Advanced kit settings
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2018, 10:16:49 PM »
Gotcha, and actual MIDI Kill Switch! Cool!

Yeah, that sounds like it would make a great snare. Thanks!
Alesis DM10X Mesh