Author Topic: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O  (Read 20014 times)

Offline Imscooter

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 07:11:45 AM »
Just want to throw this out there as I discovered on accident on the dm5. 

CHOKE MULTIPLE CYMBALs with only one or more actual choke able cymbals using group2 (I assume the mute groups work in a similar fashion).

After setting up a cymbal (ie crash) to work using a group (I use note 57 with 3-5 gain and a ringy cymbal voice to avoid full on muting) - so far so good....

NOW, run around and assign all of your single zone/no choke cymbal pads OR rims that you want to choke to "group2".  The choke strip will work to mute ALL these pads/cymbals!!!  In my case, I put both the crash and ride choke strips to this same note and all on group2.  I can use either the ride or crash choke strip to mute as many cymbal sound (or whatever)!

There is of course a drawback, but it can be mitigated by understanding the following:  as they are all on the same group (dm5 only has 2 groups), the cymbal sounds will "step on each other" and take over the previous sound.  In reality, this side effect is minimal through headphone/monitor, though it might pose a more significant issue when recording as the note will be "clipped".  In my limited time experimenting with this, the pros far outweigh the cons and if a certain kit/playing style has you banging away on a bunch of cymbals at the same time, pull some that you don't need choking out of the group.

Offline Imscooter

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2012, 07:24:09 AM »
Also, given that the dm10 has 9 mute groups, you could split up by the number of actual choke able cymbals you had.  The mute group may not "clip" the other hits as the groups feature in the dm5 was just just make a hi hat somewhat realistic.

I am choking 6 cymbal pads using either of 2 choke strips.

As these are my first posts, I would also like to say that after MANY hours playing with and understanding the settings, I have ZERO crosstalk issues and fantastic sensitivity and range using 10 8" converted mesh pads, 6 cymbal pads including surges and dm5/trigger io.  Dm10 kit is on the way, so I will have to start over getting everything set up just right!

Offline Trondster

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2012, 07:27:20 AM »
Welcome aboard - hope you'll like the Dm10 module as well! With a healthy attitude, understanding that you need to tweak the module to get the most of it, I'm sure you and the Dm10 will quickly become best of friends. :)
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Hellfire

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2012, 09:26:30 AM »
Also, given that the dm10 has 9 mute groups, you could split up by the number of actual choke able cymbals you had.  The mute group may not "clip" the other hits as the groups feature in the dm5 was just just make a hi hat somewhat realistic.

I am choking 6 cymbal pads using either of 2 choke strips.

As these are my first posts, I would also like to say that after MANY hours playing with and understanding the settings, I have ZERO crosstalk issues and fantastic sensitivity and range using 10 8" converted mesh pads, 6 cymbal pads including surges and dm5/trigger io.  Dm10 kit is on the way, so I will have to start over getting everything set up just right!

Welcome to the forum. You'll find that the mute grouping on the DM10 works a heck of a lot better than DM5. The main reason is because the DM10 allows you to set a group's "Play Back". This lets you set it for "Mono" or "Poly". By setting it to "Poly", the same sound in that group will not cut itself out. Meaning if you have Splash #1 in a group, hitting Splash #1 multiple times in a row will not cut off your each previous hit of Splash #1. This reduces the "machine gun" effect of mute groups.

Alesis Mute groups are one of those really cool features that you are not going to get with other modules brands.

Again, welcome to the forum and I hope you like your new DM10 when it arrives.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Imscooter

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 09:24:03 AM »
Thanks all!  I just finally got the dm5 and trigger io settings working perfectly after several years of messing around, so that is one aspect I am not looking forward to with the dm10.  Frankly, I bought the kit over the dm8 for uploading sounds which A) is not as advertised, and B) not really a feature as it is just a sysex dump which overrides what is there.  Just did this on the dm5 and it was never described as a feature.  I assumed you could upload individual samples from the net.  So I am bummed about that.  I have an iPad though, so I will get a midi adapter or cck to use the iPad as a midi sound source for additional sounds.

I assume that given the 15 year difference in the modules that the sounds will be much better.  I also was looking for a few bigger pads and more surge cymbals (even though I don't love the noise and triggering that much).  I have currently combined the dm5 kit and the USB pro kit.  I will pull out the original stuff from the dm5 kit and maybe get a few bucks back.

Also, I re-wrapped the shells with orange glitter flake foil sticker (roll for $5 at craft store) and it looks great!  Only took a few hours and added all the dual zones in where missing.  The hellfire conversion is awesome.  I have ripped these pads open a gazillion times and tried all sorts of variations including Roland cones.  Re-ordering the foam and using the mesh heads is by far the best - at least for the dm5/trigger io) - was too hot and had hot spots.  Even with a variable resistor it wasn't as good as the mesh conversion.

Offline Fall of Seraphs

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2013, 03:20:32 PM »
I have gotten a couple of questions about chokable cymbals and the DM10 in the last week. More and more people are wanting the ability to choke more cymbals than the two that the DM10 lets you do. Well, if you have a DM10 and an Alesis Trigger I/O you can have nine single zone cymbals with choke with no problems.

- Set your Trigger I/O up for "PS" trigger types. Keep in mind you can't do this on input #4 of the I/O.

- Set each midi note for each zone on the Trigger I/O to midi notes not used on your inputs on the DM10. Each piezo and switch zones of each cymbal I will call a pair of midi notes. This is important.

- You will need to set-up a mute group in your DM10 for each pair of midi notes. The DM10 allows nine mute groups. Hence nine single zone chokable cymbals

- Set your piezo sound for each cymbal to the cymbal sound you want.

- Set your switch zones to any sound and set the Decay and Level to 1. Don't turn them to off or it will not work.

You should now have chokable cymbals that work every time. If you hit the edge of your cymbal it should not (let me repeat that) should not trigger the choke. The switch must be grabbed to work. I hope some of you guys are able to use this info. Remember you can access 35 more midi notes of the DM10 with external device like the Trigger I/O (see topic DM10 Expansion with Trigger I/O & ControlPad). So, you should have plenty of room to do this.

Side note: I'm hoping to do a video very soon of this very technique.
hey Hellfire, i tried this a while back and it worked but when i tried the other cymbals it didnt work correclty. so my question is..." how do you set the peizo and switch? i dont understand where is the "SWITCH" i can set the original trigger (Piezo) but how do you get to the switch part of the equation?
im about to go and try this on all my cymbals...i have the triggerIO and 7 cymbals.
(i still havent figured out how to get the RIDE to work through the TriggerIO. it just doesnt work right. i settled for the bell tone on my 2nd ride....still no one has posted that they figured it out yet.

owell... hope to hear back from you onthe cymblal chokes... really wish all triggers had the ability to choke like cymbal #1.
thanks!
Alesis DM10 Pro + Trigger IO, Demon Drive pedals, Surge Cymbals Pack #2, 5 alesis cymbal pads/ride, Extreme Noise Cancellation head phones and George Kollias sticks.

Offline Hellfire

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2013, 01:41:05 PM »
I have gotten a couple of questions about chokable cymbals and the DM10 in the last week. More and more people are wanting the ability to choke more cymbals than the two that the DM10 lets you do. Well, if you have a DM10 and an Alesis Trigger I/O you can have nine single zone cymbals with choke with no problems.

- Set your Trigger I/O up for "PS" trigger types. Keep in mind you can't do this on input #4 of the I/O.

- Set each midi note for each zone on the Trigger I/O to midi notes not used on your inputs on the DM10. Each piezo and switch zones of each cymbal I will call a pair of midi notes. This is important.

- You will need to set-up a mute group in your DM10 for each pair of midi notes. The DM10 allows nine mute groups. Hence nine single zone chokable cymbals

- Set your piezo sound for each cymbal to the cymbal sound you want.

- Set your switch zones to any sound and set the Decay and Level to 1. Don't turn them to off or it will not work.

You should now have chokable cymbals that work every time. If you hit the edge of your cymbal it should not (let me repeat that) should not trigger the choke. The switch must be grabbed to work. I hope some of you guys are able to use this info. Remember you can access 35 more midi notes of the DM10 with external device like the Trigger I/O (see topic DM10 Expansion with Trigger I/O & ControlPad). So, you should have plenty of room to do this.

Side note: I'm hoping to do a video very soon of this very technique.
hey Hellfire, i tried this a while back and it worked but when i tried the other cymbals it didnt work correclty. so my question is..." how do you set the peizo and switch? i dont understand where is the "SWITCH" i can set the original trigger (Piezo) but how do you get to the switch part of the equation?
im about to go and try this on all my cymbals...i have the triggerIO and 7 cymbals.
(i still havent figured out how to get the RIDE to work through the TriggerIO. it just doesnt work right. i settled for the bell tone on my 2nd ride....still no one has posted that they figured it out yet.

owell... hope to hear back from you onthe cymblal chokes... really wish all triggers had the ability to choke like cymbal #1.
thanks!

The type of cymbals the work best for this is the Surge type cymbal with choke. The choke is a switch. So you must have cymbal with a choke. The Trigger needs to be set to "PS" trigger type in the Trigger I/O. You should be able to look that up in the Trigger I/O manual if you don't know how to do that. You can use any input on the Trigger I/O other than input #4 ride. Other than that I'm not sure what you are looking for because you quoted the directions above. I hope that helps.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Fall of Seraphs

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2013, 03:13:45 PM »
i have an Alesis hi hat cymbal and Alesis crash with choke cymbal that i want to set as chokable. My surge cymbal is set therough the DM10 crash #1 input.
im guessing that once i set as PS trigger. i can hit the cymbal and "note chase the actual crash and set as a crash, then grab the choke switch and note chase it to the instructions above? my question was how do i know what channel the "switch choke" is running through with out a note chase? is there a set midi note# for each switch note based off the original piezo midi note? sounds complicated but does that make sense?
i was hoping that Crash #1 through the trigger IO would automatically choke like the DM10 crash#1 input. but it doesnt :(

hopefully i have i figured it out now. thanks for your help!
Alesis DM10 Pro + Trigger IO, Demon Drive pedals, Surge Cymbals Pack #2, 5 alesis cymbal pads/ride, Extreme Noise Cancellation head phones and George Kollias sticks.

Offline Hellfire

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2013, 10:15:08 PM »
i have an Alesis hi hat cymbal and Alesis crash with choke cymbal that i want to set as chokable. My surge cymbal is set therough the DM10 crash #1 input.

A hi-hat cymbal trigger does not have a choke switch. You must have a choke capable trigger to be able to choke it. Which is what I stated above.

im guessing that once i set as PS trigger. i can hit the cymbal and "note chase the actual crash and set as a crash, then grab the choke switch and note chase it to the instructions above? my question was how do i know what channel the "switch choke" is running through with out a note chase? is there a set midi note# for each switch note based off the original piezo midi note? sounds complicated but does that make sense?
i was hoping that Crash #1 through the trigger IO would automatically choke like the DM10 crash#1 input. but it doesnt :(

It doesn't work that way. The DM10 doesn't talk to the Trigger I/O as if it is part of the DM10. Using controls on the DM10 is only for the DM10. You will need to use the controllers on the Trigger I/O. "PS" is set on the Trigger I/O. Your trigger must be plugged into the Trigger I/O. You must manually set the midi note number in the Trigger I/O that correspond to the midi notes you wish to use on the DM10.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel you are bitting off more than you can chew. I would highly suggest you take a step back and read up on have midi works. The directions in this topic assume you have a basic understanding of midi and how it work between devices. I hope that helps.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Fall of Seraphs

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2013, 11:05:46 PM »
lol...uhh...i think i have figured it out pretty well on my own, being that the triggerIO manual and tips do not explain enough detail.
But now that ive figured it out it makes sense and it works great!!!! I have 3 new chokable cymbals now. the reason i didnt understand your directions is because it doesnt expain in detail how to find the midi note for the "switch" part of the trigger.
So an example would be : set Piezo trigger to midi note #55 (both TriggerIO and DM10), and mute group #1 (DM10). then grab the rim/"switch trigger" and set it to midi note #56 9both trigger IO and DM10), set to mute group#1, level 1, and decay 00 (DM10).
I just needed a little more detail on how the switch trigger and the Trigger IO work together, ect...It hard to explain in writing how to operate these MIDI components (which im sure you deal with all the time)
thansk for the tips! My set sounds so awesome now!  ;D
Alesis DM10 Pro + Trigger IO, Demon Drive pedals, Surge Cymbals Pack #2, 5 alesis cymbal pads/ride, Extreme Noise Cancellation head phones and George Kollias sticks.

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 01:39:20 PM »
Sorry for asking, maybe it was clarified earlier, but I canīt find it. How many chokable cymbals can be handled by the trigger I/O alone? (Iīm not using a DM10, just a trigger I/O!)
Thank you :-)

Offline Hellfire

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 05:30:08 PM »
Sorry for asking, maybe it was clarified earlier, but I canīt find it. How many chokable cymbals can be handled by the trigger I/O alone? (Iīm not using a DM10, just a trigger I/O!)
Thank you :-)
Every input of the Trigger I/O can be programed to choke a cymbal (except input #4 Ride). So your answer is nine chokable cymbals if that is all you are using the Trigger I/O for.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Khes74

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2014, 06:51:40 PM »
I think I may be a bit late to the party... however can you do any choke able cymbal with the dm10 alone? This may have been answered and if so I am very sorry.

Thanks.

Offline AHayden82

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2014, 01:26:01 PM »
The DM10 Module will allow you to have 2 chokeable cymbals.
DM10X With Dampened Rack. Simple 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 8" and 10" Pads. Custom Wooden Hoops and 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 12" Pads. Hi-Hat on separate rack. Roc-N-Soc Throne with Back Rest.

Offline Khes74

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2014, 02:56:03 PM »
The DM10 Module will allow you to have 2 chokeable cymbals.

Yes I know but I mean more than 2.

Offline AHayden82

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2014, 09:32:07 AM »
Sorry Khes,
I wasnt sure what you were asking. By no means did I mean to imply that you didnt know that already. My bad. From everything that I have read on here, It looks like 2 is all we get without a trigger I/O. I have been trying to figure out the same thing. Sometimes I use the stop button on the module. Especially at the end of a song that ends abruptly. I know it sounds crazy, but when you hit the stop button it mutes all triggers immediately. At the end of a song in which I use a crash for the last note and I want it to end without ringing out, I hit the stop button and it works well if I have hit a cymbal that doesnt have the choke feature. I have also played around with setting up a few cymbals with two different layers. I use whatever cymbal sound that I want as layer A and then I use a splash cymbal as layer B and then turn the dampening way up on both. It's not really close to a choke, but also not too far away and it does give a really nice cymbal sound that cuts itself off very quickly after you strike it. Otherwise, I just dont know what else to do without the trigger I/O. Just my 2 cents. I would love for someone to tell me that I am wrong about only being able to have 2 chokable cymbals with the module alone. We can only hope.
DM10X With Dampened Rack. Simple 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 8" and 10" Pads. Custom Wooden Hoops and 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 12" Pads. Hi-Hat on separate rack. Roc-N-Soc Throne with Back Rest.

Offline Trondster

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2014, 10:07:02 AM »
I do believe you have some options using mute groups - although you then have a problem playing several cymbals at once.
Hopefully Hellfire soon will flesh out the details in his subject "CYMBAL CHOKE ON ANY DUAL ZONE INPUT": :)
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=4786.0

Edit: I haven't tried, but I'm guessing that you could share a mute group for the head and rim for the cymbal, that you put a non-audible sound for the rim, and that the rim will register a tiny hit when you press the choke. Or similar. It would probably ruin any cymbal swells, though. Experiment! ;)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:22:59 AM by Trondster »
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline AHayden82

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2014, 11:10:03 AM »
Thanks Trondster,
Im going to give that a go and see what I can come up with. I am very excited about some of the topics in the advanced user guide. I set up my dual zone Hi-Hat from the guide and was very happy with the outcome.

Thanks again,
DM10X With Dampened Rack. Simple 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 8" and 10" Pads. Custom Wooden Hoops and 682 Black Mesh Head With Cone Conversion on 12" Pads. Hi-Hat on separate rack. Roc-N-Soc Throne with Back Rest.

Offline Hellfire

Re: More Chokable Cymbals, DM10 & Trigger I/O
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2014, 12:09:10 PM »
I do believe you have some options using mute groups - although you then have a problem playing several cymbals at once.
Hopefully Hellfire soon will flesh out the details in his subject "CYMBAL CHOKE ON ANY DUAL ZONE INPUT": :)
http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=4786.0

Edit: I haven't tried, but I'm guessing that you could share a mute group for the head and rim for the cymbal, that you put a non-audible sound for the rim, and that the rim will register a tiny hit when you press the choke. Or similar. It would probably ruin any cymbal swells, though. Experiment! ;)

And you would be correct. I just haven't had the time to take the pics and lay out the process step by step.

If you want to get really fancy you can put a heavily decayed sound on the rim to help make the choke sound more realistic.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads