Author Topic: DM10 to Power mixer  (Read 5304 times)

DM10 to Power mixer
« on: May 12, 2014, 11:08:58 AM »
Hi all.
I want to use my DM10 to play live with a guitarist and bass player.
We have an ALTO PRO RMX power mixer and Behringer passive PA speakers.
I would like to connect the DM10 module to the mixer then to the front of house PA speakers and use my drum amp as an onstage monitor.
I am not sure how to cable this set up.
Would I use TRS cables from the DM10 main out directly to the ALTO mixer ( assuming the DM10 output is balanced ) or would I need to use a DI box ( assuming the DM10 output is unbalanced )
I have looked at the manual and the Alesis website but can't find this information. It may be there but I didn't find it.
This will be my first time setting up the DM10 for live work and I have not set up a PA either. First gig is on 21st June so I need to learn quickly.
Any helpful advice appreciated.

Offline Trondster

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 11:17:43 AM »
The Dm10 outputs are balanced, so yes, just use two balanced cables with TRS jacks for the Dm10 Main Out outputs.
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 11:37:07 AM »
Thanks for the reply Trondster.
I have found a connections guide in the manual. It was actually very easy to find, how I missed it I don't know.
It suggests using TS cables for connecting to a mixer. I copied this from the manual.
Quote
• Connect your electronic drum set's triggers to the corresponding inputs on the module with the
appropriate 1/4" cables. Dual-zone pads or cymbals (e.g., a drum with head and rim triggers or a
cymbal that can produce bow and bell sounds) will require TRS cables to trigger both zones.
• Plug 1/4” TS cables from the MAIN OUT or AUX OUT to an amplifier, mixer, or speaker system. (For
mono sound, you can connect only one output.)
• You can connect a set of 1/4” TRS headphones to the HEADPHONES OUTPUT.
• You can connect another audio device to the AUX IN using standard RCA cables.

However, given your (Trondster's) in depth knowledge of the DM10 I am inclined to follow your advice.

I think unbalanced cables will work OK but as all the other inputs to the mixer will be balanced I thought it best to have the cabling from the DM10 to be balanced as well. Maybe I am being over cautious. As I said, this is my first time setting up a PA and this is all new to me.

Offline Trondster

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 12:43:13 PM »
If the mixer supports balanced inputs you might as well use balanced cables to lessen any interference noise. If the mixer doesn't have balanced inputs - just use standard TS cables.

Hmm - strange - the manual only mentions TS cables, but I'm pretty sure I've read several times on this forum that the outputs are balanced...

And - the specs on the Alesis website state that the outputs are balanced: https://www.alesis.com/dm10
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 12:49:05 PM by Trondster »
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 12:48:52 PM »
The mixer does support balanced inputs so that's the way I'll go. Thanks for the advice. ;)

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 12:02:12 PM »
Hi Trondster,

Does the Main Out and Aux Out put out equal signal strength and operate simultaneously?

Offline AlanK

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 01:07:13 PM »
Somewhere in the manuals it mentioned TS cables instead of TRS and I thought it was a typo.. but in any case if you're patching out the MAIN (or AUX) you only need TS for right and left channels to get stereo out as long as you use the both outputs. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) if you only use a single cable out, then you can use a TRS in the left channel output to get stereo out with a single cable, which is what I do when I plug into my PA speaker. If I go to the mixer I'll use TS cables in both R & L outputs to get stereo through the mixer.
DM10X with Addictive Drums 2, Pro X hi-hat, 4 crashes, foam cone conversion w Roland mesh heads, Laurin Drums snare and kick, Mapex P710W double kick pedal, Mapex 2 legged hi-hat, Behringer 8 channel USB mixer, Tascam 144MK AI, Samson Expedition Escape powered speakers

Offline Trondster

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 02:27:39 PM »
Somewhere in the manuals it mentioned TS cables instead of TRS and I thought it was a typo.. but in any case if you're patching out the MAIN (or AUX) you only need TS for right and left channels to get stereo out as long as you use the both outputs. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) if you only use a single cable out, then you can use a TRS in the left channel output to get stereo out with a single cable, which is what I do when I plug into my PA speaker. If I go to the mixer I'll use TS cables in both R & L outputs to get stereo through the mixer.
I don't think you'll get stereo output from the Dm10 outputs using only one TRS cable in the left output - I believe you only get the left channel as a balanced output. Haven't tried it, though. ;)

To get stereo from the Dm10 in a TRS cable - use a 2xTS to 1xTRS Y splitter.
DM10 Pro kit with dampened rack, extra crashes, mesh heads, Gibraltar stands, P2002C and a dream cherry snare by Diamond Drums.

Offline Rmiller

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2016, 02:07:00 PM »
I realize this is an old topic but I just recently acquired a mixer and am going to connect a DM10 module to it. The same old question comes about the outputs. Either the user manual is wrong or the overview, feature and specs on the alesis description page (website) is wrong. The overview describes the module as having 2- 1/4" stereo balanced main and aux outputs. Stereo connections are never balanced as I'll explain later. The user manual however says to use TS cables. The headphone connection is a single 1/4" TRS stereo connection, unbalanced.  Using TS cables on a balanced output or input for that matter kills all balancing (no opposite polarity differential). You need TRS cables to achieve a balanced signal or an unbalanced single jack stereo connection. Tip + (hot channel), Ring - (cold channel) and Sleeve (gnd) for a balanced connection or Tip (L channel) Ring (R channel) and sleeve (gnd) i.e the headphones (or single TRS 3.5mm connections). There are quite a few ways balanced lines are designed, Impedance Bal, Ground Compensated Bal, True symmetrical Bal, and the list goes on, but, in all cases they require 3 wires to be balanced, thus a TRS or XLR cable. TS cables have only 2 wires, Tip + and Sleeve (gnd) as does an RCA connection. Besides the single jack unbalanced stereo connection (1/4' ur 3.5mm TRS)' you can have a two jack stereo connection L and R, normally unbalanced RCA (only has a tip and sleeve) or 1/4" TS jacks i.e.the DM10 main and aux outs. TRS jacks work on unbalanced connections because of the + (hot)signal is at the tip, the ring is dead, and the sleeve is always ground. Notice however that TS jacks work only sometimes and sometimes not with balanced connections (they work only on gnd compensated or impedance balanced designed connections). The reason is a balanced connection uses a signal on both the +(tip) and - (ring) and compares the difference in voltage between the the two since they are opposite polarities. The + and - voltages have to match, and any other voltages are not used ie.e stray RF etc. thus balanced. This achieves much less noise and hum in a line. The TS connection does not compare any signals. Only one signal path is used normally at + Tip and the Sleeve is just the gnd thus noisier on long runs where they can pick up stray RF noise.
 So I think the DM10 has unbalanced outputs just like the left and right channels on any stereo RCA connection except using 1/4" jacks instead, thus the TS cables. The only way to know this for sure is to open the box and see how the connectors are wired.
  Now the other question remains is what is their maximum output +13dBu/11dBV or whatever if you want to achieve "unity gain" between connections. Sorry this is so long winded but its necessary to understand apples to apples.

Offline JimmyB

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2016, 02:12:28 PM »
An unpowered DI box is the easiest way to go.
JimmyB

Offline Rmiller

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 02:31:34 PM »
Possibly, depending on the connection at the other end. Maybe one way to find out for sure is to connect a single TRS cable to either output and pan one drum completely left and another to the right and see which one you would here or both. Not a 100% sure on that but it might tell you if the jack has an isolated wire connection at the ring ?

Offline JimmyB

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2016, 03:19:43 PM »
Both the left and right main outputs are summed mono when only one output is used.  Doesn't matter what cable is plugged into it.
Definitely skip the DI box if you like induced noise in the mix.
JimmyB

Offline Rmiller

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2016, 07:24:52 PM »
Yeah, I happen to have a two di boxes and considered using them but if they are balanced outs then I won't need them. Thus all the confusion between the alesis website description as being balanced outs vs the manual saying to use TS cables. One of the two are in error but which one? That is the problem. I asked the question on the alesis knowledge base site. Absolutely no help there.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 07:58:42 PM by Rmiller »


Offline Rmiller

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 09:39:18 AM »
Thanks for the link Chaser. It still doesn't clear up why you would use a TS cable to a balanced connection (if in fact they truly are balanced). Even though the picture shows a TRS cable, doesn't mean anything either. Whoever made the picture could have just been copying and pasting a pictufre of the same plug through out and not differentiating between each connection type; Ts vs TRS. All the references just don't jive. I think the only way to really know is to open up the box and see how it's wired since a real schematic or spec sheet is not available. And we still don't know what the max output signal is rated at so proper gain settings can be achieved to set the "unity gain" between devices.

Offline Rmiller

Re: DM10 to Power mixer
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2016, 10:48:03 AM »
I think I can finally put to rest whether the Main/Aux Ouputs are Balanced or Unbalanced. My conclusion is they are UNBALANCED!  I took the top off of the DM10 module and tested the connections. First off, all the input/output 1/4" jacks for the drum Ins, headphones, and Main/Aux outs are all identical.  They each have 3 connections to accommodate a TRS plug, the Tip, Ring and Sleeve. The connector for headphones is a TRS, tip left channel, ring right channel and sleeve is gnd. The drum inputs are similar but instead accommodate the different zone channels from the pads/cymbals. The outputs however, have the ring jumpered to the sleeve (gnd), (I think on the board itself), thus making them an unbalanced connection that can use a TS or TRS plugs. I thought they could be Ground Compensated balanced jacks, but not so. I used a multi-meter and checked the continuity between the ring and sleeve and got .4ohms. Then I checked all the sleeves from all of the connectors to the common gnd on the where the DC power adapter plugs in and got .8 ohms to include the drum inputs. Then I checked all the rings and got .8 ohms on the Main and Aux outputs and nothing on the drum inputs (as they should be). If the Main/Aux rings were ground compensated balanced, then there would have been a resistor in the line before going to gnd therefore would have also got a different ohms reading. Since the output of both, the rings and sleeves, had continuity to the common gnd and at the same resistance and continuity between them as well, then the connection is definitely unbalanced. One note though. The sleeve part of the connectors are kind of hidden do to the way the connectors are mounted. At first glance you only see the tip and ring. What is still unknown is what the ouput signal is: inst level or line level and what the max dBu/dBV's are.  I think the specs in the advertising literature stating they are balanced outs is incorrect and the manual is correct when stating to just use TS plugs.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:59:09 AM by Rmiller »