Author Topic: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples  (Read 2425 times)

Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« on: April 17, 2018, 04:49:06 PM »
Could someone help me with making an instrument from BFD2 samples? I took the samples(individual wav files), from a Ludwig snare and imported them into the Strike editor. Then I used the automap to create an instrument with 16 velocity levels. I saved the instrument(85mb), and placed it in the user acoustic instruments folder.
Then, I started creating a new kit and added the newly created snare. After doing so, I could click on the snare, in the editor and hear the sample. I thought, "Oh great, this is working". I just used instruments that were already in the module to finish making the new kit. The kit size showed that there were 33mb left over, so the size was under the 200mb maximum.
I saved the kit and loaded it, to check it out. Everything looked fine, but when I hit the snare, I hear no sound. All the other pads work as they should and the snare lights up, when it is hit, but no sound. When I change the snare to a preset instrument it works fine. If I go back to change the snare back to the one I created, as soon as I go to select that instrument, a window opens up that says, "Incompatible data".
As I said earlier, if I click on the snare, in the Strike editor, I hear the snare sound, but when I play the actual snare in my drum kit, I hear nothing. I'm stumped and Alesis is looking into it for me. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate your input.

Offline Chaser

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 01:47:09 AM »
Could someone help me with making an instrument from BFD2 samples? I took the samples(individual wav files), from a Ludwig snare and imported them into the Strike editor. Then I used the automap to create an instrument with 16 velocity levels. I saved the instrument(85mb), and placed it in the user acoustic instruments folder.
Then, I started creating a new kit and added the newly created snare. After doing so, I could click on the snare, in the editor and hear the sample. I thought, "Oh great, this is working". I just used instruments that were already in the module to finish making the new kit. The kit size showed that there were 33mb left over, so the size was under the 200mb maximum.
I saved the kit and loaded it, to check it out. Everything looked fine, but when I hit the snare, I hear no sound. All the other pads work as they should and the snare lights up, when it is hit, but no sound. When I change the snare to a preset instrument it works fine. If I go back to change the snare back to the one I created, as soon as I go to select that instrument, a window opens up that says, "Incompatible data".
As I said earlier, if I click on the snare, in the Strike editor, I hear the snare sound, but when I play the actual snare in my drum kit, I hear nothing. I'm stumped and Alesis is looking into it for me. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate your input.

You will run into errors occasionally using the editor you may see..
Path not found (you moved the file or edited the name of the folder or a sample etc)
SD card error..(you're trying to do something such as move files,automap etc before the editor hasn't finished previous task..slow down..let the module refresh)
"Incompatible data"(usually means a corrupted .sin (instrument file) or sample(s))
 
I have had this error when I have edited .sin files after I batch edited/resampled and replaced files with the SD card in place and I was trying to find a shortcut other than re-creating the instrument or I got impatient as when you get into the 4-5,000 instrument range and 200-300,000 samples the refresh rate gets longer while using the editor..So it's not an "uncommon error" or an issue with the module.

For future reference..instead of importing files one by one you can copy/paste folders into the samples folder on the SD card while it's in the module or in a reader on a computer.
It's much faster.

Re-create the instrument file.
I don't know where you created the folder,to keep things simple move it to acoustic folder in the SD card (if you haven't allready).It will be easier for you to remember for now if the samples are in the acoustic folder and the instrument (.sin) is in the acoustic folder also.
It sounds like you understand how to use the Instrument Editor section,so create the instrument again,you can save the instrument as the same .sin as before just click on it and it will ask to replace.
Instead of using the kit editor..go to the the module,load the kit you created..then to the snare.. voice>instrument>user and load the new instrument and see if you get the error ..you can save the kit from the module.If you still get the error,then next is checking the samples.

I have to ask...why would you create a 16 velocity layer snare?(instead of 127)..is it because you have 16 files and basing velocities on that?
Try 127 and see what the editor comes up with.It will not create velocities folders for those it can't find.
 
85MB is pretty big for a snare or any single instrument for the STRIKE.
That's a lot of space for only 16 velocities and would equal an average sample size of 5mb each..or equivalent to a 24/48 stereo file 30 secs long or 24/96 stereo about 15 secs.


Offline Purpledc

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2018, 10:08:14 AM »
Could someone help me with making an instrument from BFD2 samples? I took the samples(individual wav files), from a Ludwig snare and imported them into the Strike editor. Then I used the automap to create an instrument with 16 velocity levels. I saved the instrument(85mb), and placed it in the user acoustic instruments folder.
Then, I started creating a new kit and added the newly created snare. After doing so, I could click on the snare, in the editor and hear the sample. I thought, "Oh great, this is working". I just used instruments that were already in the module to finish making the new kit. The kit size showed that there were 33mb left over, so the size was under the 200mb maximum.
I saved the kit and loaded it, to check it out. Everything looked fine, but when I hit the snare, I hear no sound. All the other pads work as they should and the snare lights up, when it is hit, but no sound. When I change the snare to a preset instrument it works fine. If I go back to change the snare back to the one I created, as soon as I go to select that instrument, a window opens up that says, "Incompatible data".
As I said earlier, if I click on the snare, in the Strike editor, I hear the snare sound, but when I play the actual snare in my drum kit, I hear nothing. I'm stumped and Alesis is looking into it for me. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate your input.

You will run into errors occasionally using the editor you may see..
Path not found (you moved the file or edited the name of the folder or a sample etc)
SD card error..(you're trying to do something such as move files,automap etc before the editor hasn't finished previous task..slow down..let the module refresh)
"Incompatible data"(usually means a corrupted .sin (instrument file) or sample(s))
 
I have had this error when I have edited .sin files after I batch edited/resampled and replaced files with the SD card in place and I was trying to find a shortcut other than re-creating the instrument or I got impatient as when you get into the 4-5,000 instrument range and 200-300,000 samples the refresh rate gets longer while using the editor..So it's not an "uncommon error" or an issue with the module.

For future reference..instead of importing files one by one you can copy/paste folders into the samples folder on the SD card while it's in the module or in a reader on a computer.
It's much faster.

Re-create the instrument file.
I don't know where you created the folder,to keep things simple move it to acoustic folder in the SD card (if you haven't allready).It will be easier for you to remember for now if the samples are in the acoustic folder and the instrument (.sin) is in the acoustic folder also.
It sounds like you understand how to use the Instrument Editor section,so create the instrument again,you can save the instrument as the same .sin as before just click on it and it will ask to replace.
Instead of using the kit editor..go to the the module,load the kit you created..then to the snare.. voice>instrument>user and load the new instrument and see if you get the error ..you can save the kit from the module.If you still get the error,then next is checking the samples.

I have to ask...why would you create a 16 velocity layer snare?(instead of 127)..is it because you have 16 files and basing velocities on that?
Try 127 and see what the editor comes up with.It will not create velocities folders for those it can't find.
 
85MB is pretty big for a snare or any single instrument for the STRIKE.
That's a lot of space for only 16 velocities and would equal an average sample size of 5mb each..or equivalent to a 24/48 stereo file 30 secs long or 24/96 stereo about 15 secs.


The definitions of "layers" is getting me confused.   When you watch the you tube video on auto mapping they ask how many layers he wants for the snare drum.   He chose 16.   When he auto mapped there was still velocity 1-127 but that was separated into 16 groupings or "layers".  Isnt every instrument going to have a 1-127 range regardless of how many layers you use?  I thought the amount layers determined the depth and dynamic range while 1 was the minimum and 127 was the maximum of the range.

Offline Chaser

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2018, 02:49:26 PM »
The definitions of "layers" is getting me confused.   When you watch the you tube video on auto mapping they ask how many layers he wants for the snare drum.   He chose 16.   When he auto mapped there was still velocity 1-127 but that was separated into 16 groupings or "layers".  Isnt every instrument going to have a 1-127 range regardless of how many layers you use?  I thought the amount layers determined the depth and dynamic range while 1 was the minimum and 127 was the maximum of the range.

The OP never responded so unknown if it was 16 samples or 100+ samples mapped to 16 velocity "ranges".
Hopefully the latter.85MB is a lot for a snare.

You could auto-map a round robin to just one 0-127 range if you want to.The two Powerstation kits are like that , especially the hi-hat.

I use the 127 auto mapping because I can build kits with 1,000 samples under the 200mb limit and utilizes both layers and dynamics per zone.The more ranges gives the ability to be more precise/specific when adding/replacing samples to ranges and create unique instruments.
I have converted my studio into a sampling studio for the past 8-10 months and bringing in drummers/kits specifically building a data base for the STRIKE module.A lot of them are cover/Tribute bands and I get to sample various brands/manufactures and in exchange along with some studio time I also "tune" their kit's and outboard gear according to the band/group/album there are trying to duplicate which is also helpful to create "Artist' presets 

The STRIKE module has some unique features and you can create/isolate your own velocity "ranges" then put a sample into it that has entirely nothing to do with a drum sample.It will sound only when that velocity range is struck.You can also move  different velocities into different ranges.
 
I think the term "layers" gets misinterpreted or overused and is determined by it's application.
I see it used frequently in different areas of music production.
Over the years it was common for piano/keyboard as one velocity sample was one layer..some samples are multi-layered or multiple velocity.I myself got into the habit of using it also from guitar modeling,multi-tracking,sample building etc.
I see it referred to constantly in drum samples.
As far as Alesis drum modules go...
There are Drum modules that have more than one Instrument/group of sample(s) that make up a zone.
The STRIKE has two "layers"..A and B...per Zone
The "layer" consisting of single or multiple samples/velocities or as in the case of the STRIKE..a single instrument file(.sin) links to the location of the sample(s). The samples do not need to be in the same folder.

When using  auto-map you are creating an instrument/file linked to a single sample or multiple samples/velocity "ranges" that are "listened to" and sorted by the module.

Since each "layer" can have up to 127 samples/velocity "ranges".. you can have over 250 samples per Zone.
You can then control the dynamics between the two "layers".

Edit:
The Auto Map feature detects the "perceived" loudness of the sample(s) and favors creating the most natural-sounding instrument possible.
I have found it to be  not as accurate as claimed as samples that are originally numbered/divided into velocities are not found in that velocity folder.I have used normalized and non and still find samples scattered in a range of velocities.

Auto Map an internal kit such as the PS kit snare "PS Taye MapleSnHd Amb 1" and you will see .010-.013 velocity ranges in the 67-72 range and velocities of .032-.036 in the 97-102 range..etc.
Still a lot of bugs in the editor..including graphics overlaying on top of each other,text cutoffs.

On a positive note as far as creating instruments...40+ character sin files are supported..


The only downside is the UI screen/graphic partially covers under Voices.
Probably the reason why the editor won't allow above 30 (26 +file extension)
If Alesis would get rid of the knobs and go with sliders it would be viewable.


and the STRIKE module does support a 128GB SDXC card...that's a lot samples.
The downside is the STRIKE Editor takes 1min-1 1/2 mins to load per 100,000 samples..which is about what I have been getting on a 32GB card

« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 09:37:27 PM by Chaser »

Offline Purpledc

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2018, 09:49:17 PM »
so let me ask you this?  on average how many velocity ranges should I be making per instrument to have a decent sound but still having some dynamics?  I don't want it to sound machine gunny.  But my problem is that when I made some toms each one was 20mb for the each center alone.   So I think I am either using too many samples in the auto map or I'm making too many velocity ranges. 

Offline Chaser

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2018, 10:33:21 PM »
so let me ask you this?  on average how many velocity ranges should I be making per instrument to have a decent sound but still having some dynamics?  I don't want it to sound machine gunny.  But my problem is that when I made some toms each one was 20mb for the each center alone.   So I think I am either using too many samples in the auto map or I'm making too many velocity ranges.

That would depend on sample sizes..I made 25-50 variations of each drum each varies in length/tail whether it's dry,compression,impulse responses etc.
They are all different with respect to sample size and velocity. I have folders with 20 samples 16 velocity ranges at 5mb..30 samples 44 velocity ranges at 6mb..80 for 10mb etc etc..
Check the velocity ranges and see if there are multiple files and if they are only 1-2 velocity apart..33,34....70,71....119,120 etc.
You can probably  delete some of those..How many files are making up the 20mb?
If you ever want to edit or remove a Velocity range ..."right click" on it and you can edit the range or select remove.


Offline Purpledc

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2018, 08:42:00 AM »
Yeah,  right now I don't know enough about what I'm doing to hand assemble an instrument.  I have learned a little just by dissecting the stock instruments and seeing how many samples they are comprised of though.   That's where I think my issue is.  I was making the samples way too big.  I got some free stuff off of the metal kick drum website and the toms have something like 42 wav files per drum.  And I was auto mapping all of them at once with 16 velocity stages.   I had like 7 .wav files per stage.   So I went in and saw that each tom center was comprised of 7 velocities and 6 variants of each.  So I just chose the first 2 of each velocity and remapped it.   It actually sounded a lot better without being so cluttered and I could add all the toms without maxing the kit.


Sorry to be talking your ear off.  But honestly you are the first person i have found who can go this deep with this stuff.  Most guys I talk to just dont even use strike editor.   I really love that you can use a 128GB card.   I thought the limit was 64.   Im going to have to get one of those soon.  I dont think Ill ever come close to maxing out even my 32.  But I want to have the maximum storage possible and not have to worry about it.

So here is a question.  Have you had any luck mapping two similar instruments into one?  Or does it just sound weird and one instrument dominates and the other doesnt get mapped at all?   Id like to experiment with adding a soft snare hit into a a kick drum and see if I can get a little snare buzz in a kick sound so i dont have to waste my layer ability in the module for that sound.   

Offline Chaser

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2018, 05:44:19 PM »
So here is a question.  Have you had any luck mapping two similar instruments into one?  Or does it just sound weird and one instrument dominates and the other doesnt get mapped at all?   Id like to experiment with adding a soft snare hit into a a kick drum and see if I can get a little snare buzz in a kick sound so i dont have to waste my layer ability in the module for that sound.
You mean as far as placing different instrument samples in the Velocity ranges?
It works , but you would have to put a sample of the other instrument in each velocity range or you'd only hear it on certain velocities and you have no control mixing the separate instruments like you would using one on layer A and the other on Layer B.
I think there was a some in the presets like 055.. a guitar was put into the velocities so you could hear it on multiple hits.
Check your PM.

Offline Purpledc

Re: Creating a new Strike instrument with BFD2 samples
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018, 05:49:23 PM »
Yeah.  So like what I did was to be able to get the sound a kick with more than 2 layers I took samples from 2 different kick drums that I liked and I auto mapped them together and it sounded really good.  Just wondering if that is actually a thing.  Because that way it left the layer B open for anything else I wanted.  Though it was a compromise in the sense that the kicks are in equal amounts and cant be separated.  But I found it cool regardless.