Author Topic: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017  (Read 1912 times)

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2017, 06:11:07 PM »
For my next attempt at finding a home for the rim piezo I tried this.



In this shot it is mounted directly under where I would be playing the rim. It is sitting on a stack of CD pieces. About 10 of them cut the to fit the void until that top piece could be taped on to the edge overlapping to the base. .

This has 2 problems.

1. Sensitivity despite being directly under were i am hitting the rim is at 90.
2. It hot spots. As you move away from directly above it, it still works, but it drops in level too much.

I reckon the main problem here is that the stack of cd bits is not really solid. Despite my best effort it's too spongey.

I need to get a solid piece of wood in there to mount the piezo on.

Also, it might be that I need two piezos here. (Series or Parallel?) .

I'll try the wood first.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:23:59 PM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2017, 01:22:14 AM »
DONE

Not 'perfect' but darn close enough. I'll call it 97% perfect.

I found a garden stake that looked about the right thickness. I cut it length, used sandpaper to make it perfect


 
Then put it in the space between the ribs on the 12" pads.



Then I tried a hot glue gun to attach it.

Stupid useless stuff. It did not stick to the wood or the base.



So I ended up putting double sided tape on the bottom and on one side and put the block in up against a rib.

This is it. The final mod



The block works well enough. Anywhere in that region on the rim triggers  fine.

The drums are dialed in and here are some sensitivity values..

Snare Head - 13
Snare Rim - 81

Tom 1 - 16
Tom 1 Rim - 35

Tom 2 - 12
Tom 2 Rim - 51

Tom 3 - 12
Tom 3 Rim - 90  (the base piezo need to be moved)

Tom 4 - 10
Tom 4 Rim 82

(Tom 3 will have  rim score like Tom 4  or the Snare after I move it's piezo. I mis calculated the position of the piezo)

All the pads are tuned differently. The snare is tight. As is Tom 1. Tom 4 is very loose (just beyond wrinkles in the head). They feel amazing!!

This mod has been a hell of a lot of work. Lots of trial and error. I could not have done it without the input from ignotus. Thanks again buddy.

Having done this now I don't see any reason to ever replace these pads. They are that good.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:26:18 PM by Dobly »

Offline ignotus

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2017, 03:45:17 AM »
Glad to have been of assistance!


Just one thing - what's stopping you from putting the rim piezo back in the centre again? I see you've installed some dampening foam, so the resonance problem should be gone now, right? I'd try it in the centre letting half of the piezo float free. If the hot glue won't stick, you could try with a piece of CD and double-sided tape.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2017, 06:04:28 AM »
Glad to have been of assistance!


Just one thing - what's stopping you from putting the rim piezo back in the centre again? I see you've installed some dampening foam, so the resonance problem should be gone now, right? I'd try it in the centre letting half of the piezo float free. If the hot glue won't stick, you could try with a piece of CD and double-sided tape.

I attached a large vibration pad to the bottom of the pad. I worked out that when the note C4 was played loud (as my band tends to play) near the pads the base would resonate and trigger the rim piezo like someone was doing a super fast buzz roll on it, mid song.

i tried the base piezo back in the middle but the area was now dead. The C4 issue will be solved but the piezo would not work there.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 06:09:19 AM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2017, 06:11:20 AM »
>>>> some dampening foam,

That block is far from 'dampening foam'. This is a solid rubber block that you would put in building foundations to stop vibration.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2017, 08:23:19 AM »
I made a video on the performance of this (but deleted it as I need to do a better video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03PIwe7j_Mg&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:03:01 PM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 10:45:57 PM »
Just a quick note to say that taping the base onto one of the ribs did not hold. I'm in the process of gluing them on. This one has Super Glue. If that fails I'll epoxy them on. 



Note also that gaffa tape is just not cutting it holding itself around the piezo and cables. You can see that even 2 bits of gaffa tape sticky face to sticky face, does not hold together. I find that amazing. Not like they are getting any of the impact of playing the pad.


Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 10:47:53 PM »
I should add that after a couple of gigs and a few rehearsals this upgrade is a major success. I could not be happier with how they feel, play and how they perform as triggers. 

Offline ignotus

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2017, 02:51:52 AM »
That gaffer tape looks a bit too thick and I reckon it's pulling apart because of that. I use duct tape (not the same, it's thinner stuff) and have had no such issues - some piezos that have it are now a couple of years old and are still as good as the first day.

Offline Hovis Bap

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2017, 01:27:01 PM »
Have you tried double sided carpet tape?

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2017, 07:18:09 PM »
Have you tried double sided carpet tape?

No, but I don't need double sided tape.

I reckon I was just unlucky. Gaffe tape normally sticks like crazy to itself on the sticky side.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 07:31:35 AM »
That gaffer tape looks a bit too thick and I reckon it's pulling apart because of that. I use duct tape (not the same, it's thinner stuff) and have had no such issues - some piezos that have it are now a couple of years old and are still as good as the first day.

Another observation is that despite my tape being 'thicker' gaffa tape, this system will works!!. The Piezos are not less sensitive because of the tape.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2017, 09:36:27 PM »
Ok. Images fix on this thread finally.

Just as quick update few gigs and rehearsals in... Hellfire was right regarding the blue rubber floor mat I used. It is not fit for the task. I found that the snare stopped responding. When I opened it I found that the mesh head was wearing away the rubber such that it was not making proper contact.

This does not reflect on the mod itself. It is more to do with the nasty rubber i used. I have bought some higher quality EVA rubber which I'll try.

Here is a shot from the fix to my snare drum.


Offline ignotus

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 04:55:40 AM »
I saw a tip by someone elsewhere that helps to prevent wear of the foam: cover the top of it with sellotape or similar.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 04:56:50 AM »
Wow ignotus.. You are a font of knowledge.. Brilliant.

Offline Hellfire

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 08:19:05 AM »
Ok. Images fix on this thread finally.

Just as quick update few gigs and rehearsals in... Hellfire was right regarding the blue rubber floor mat I used. It is not fit for the task. I found that the snare stopped responding. When I opened it I found that the mesh head was wearing away the rubber such that it was not making proper contact.

This does not reflect on the mod itself. It is more to do with the nasty rubber i used. I have bought some higher quality EVA rubber which I'll try.

Here is a shot from the fix to my snare drum.



Just an FYI, the blue floor mat that you used is EVA foam. I would not use EVA foam as the foam that makes contact with the drum head. It okay to use as spacer material, but not as the main contact with the drum head. EVA foam has terrible rebound properties. It will work at first, but in short time it will start to compress and not touch the mesh head properly. EVA was the first type of foam that Alesis used in the DM10 Pro Kit pads and the foam wore out within about a month of normal use.

You really need to use neoprene foam rubber.
For more edrum info, be sure to visit my web site at:
          www.HellfireDrums.com                    
My current set-up:  Alesis DM10 and Trigger I/O with modified & DIY pads

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2017, 03:33:22 AM »
Just an FYI, the blue floor mat that you used is EVA foam. I would not use EVA foam as the foam that makes contact with the drum head. It okay to use as spacer material, but not as the main contact with the drum head. EVA foam has terrible rebound properties. It will work at first, but in short time it will start to compress and not touch the mesh head properly. EVA was the first type of foam that Alesis used in the DM10 Pro Kit pads and the foam wore out within about a month of normal use.

You really need to use neoprene foam rubber.

I will do exactly that Hellfire.. Just need to find a source of neoprene around these parts. I may need to buy it on online.

That said I'll check Officeworks (office supply store). The might have neoprene mouse pads. That'll do the trick. In the mean time I'll take the advice of ignotus and put a little sticky tape over the top between the head and the rubber.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2017, 06:52:32 AM »
I the hunt for neoprene I found a couple of these in a box at home..



In case you have not worked it out it is a stubby holder (beer). I have never used them.

The rubber they are made of felt better than the rubber I used above. Must be neoprene I thought. I could squish it flat between my fingers and it sprang back to shape. I'll give it a go.

Next I ripped apart the stitching holding it together. The revealed something. .



There is a very light and smooth fabric stuck to both sides of this rubber.

Here is a cross section in extreme close up..



Even if this not neoprene, this stuff is worth a shot. It is very smooth to touch.


Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2017, 06:58:02 AM »
A lazy Sunday afternoon today I went all around my pads and fitted this new and seeming better quality foam/rubber.

There were 2 valuable lessons from my first version of this mod.

1. The rubber was wrong and wore out from the mesh rubbing on it.

2. Double sided tape does not work to hold the plastic base to the ribs.

This image shows the horror..



I could not wait to rip that out and start again..

I re-measured and cut the k-flex.  Then neatly cut new bits of the ex stubby holder and assembled the fulcrum side mounted piezo.

I also used Super Glue to glue in all the plastic bases between the ribs.

Here is the 12" version.



My 10" pads now look like this on the inside.



In both cases I aimed to make the top of the side stack around 3mm above the bearing edge of the shell.



Finally here is another shot of my 12" pads now.



I mentioned before that this mod is a major success and that one of the things I like most about it is I can have the heads on the pads as a loose or tight as I want.

I made a small video of just how 'detuned' (for what of  better term) my floor tom head is now.  Despite this looseness, it works perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFXU68tDsjg
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:40:11 AM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2017, 03:30:08 AM »
Update. I'm not happy with this latest foam/rubber. Tapping the drum very softly I'm getting double or triple triggering. Unacceptable. I'm still experimenting and sourcing new rubber. More later..

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2017, 10:21:58 PM »
I pretty much solved the issue with the Threshold setting.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2017, 07:02:26 AM »
Yet another mod.. (this might be the final one, really)  ;)

I was not happy with how much I needed to pump the threshold to avoid slight double triggering at very very soft hits.. I only really heard it at the end of a buzz roll.

I was confident that the 'fulcum' system would hold up if i replaced the block in K-flex rubber, with a block of wood.



It is epoxy'd to the plastic (cut CD) which is itself Super Glued to two of the ribs.

You may be able to tell looking at this shot that the top bit of rubber is around 4mm above the bearing edge. And as the base is no longer K-Flex, putting the head on would make this a very tight fit.

And that is really the secret to this mod working so well. Not just the 'fulcrum' system, but having enough pressure on the top of the fulcrum. Too loose and it flops around  and you'll get double triggering at low volumes.. Too much pressure and the piezo will crack. I hope I have not gone this far with it.

This tighter fit allowed me to bring the threshold back down to around 12 (from 50). I got a little crosstalk between the head and rim, but I was able to fix that in the crosstalk settings. They are set around 4 now.

Here it is now inside the 3rd tom.



Some day I'll paint the blocks black.

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2017, 06:20:12 AM »
I'm at it again.. The last mod above worked great for a few rehearsals, some practice at home and a show before failing.

Each time this mod has failed was to do with the rubber that makes up the fulcrum.

Hellfire suggested neoprene. Alas, that is not so easy to get without spending way to much for piece that is 100 times bigger than what i need.

I went to a local rubber business and alas he had no neoprene. I asked for something like it. Something a little firm, something that is NOT EVA rubber.

He found this...



Hard to tell from the image but this not EVA. It is rubbery yet firm. And if I squash one of the corners with my fingers for 30 seconds, it still comes back to shape.

It's a about 3mm (0.118") thick.



Interestingly it has a very thin sheet of perspex or plastic on one side of it. Handy.



In no time flat I had the 'fulcrum' arranged over the freshly painted wood block.



I did all the 12" pads and this stuff works great. Really great. 

You may note above that I left the perspex side face up. This should prevent the head wearing down the rubber underneath.

The top, the assembly sits about 2mm (max) above the bearing edge. You'd want to carefully measuring this out. The potential is there to break the piezo if you have it too high over the bearing edge and tighten a head down on it.  1 to 2mm seems to be the sweet spot.

The 12" were such a success i turned my attention to the 2 x 10" pads. Still with towers of K-Flex.



One of them was not triggering right and opening it I saw that the tower of k-flex in that pad had shifted.

The wood base worked so well on the 12" pads, it was time to get my saw out and make some bespoke bases for the 10" pads.

In no time I had 4 blocks cut to length. Two for each 10" pad.

Here is one of them waiting for it's epoxy to try.. (24 hours).



A reminder, the base under the wood is old CDs. It is double layer and still has a little flex in it. It touches 2 ribs and just a bit of that center circle.

From behind....



I am gluing them in in these photos. Paint and assembly tomorrow.

Oh, and incase you missed it or a new to the site, my DM10X pads are about 10mm (0.39") deeper than standard. The 10" in this shot I extended with an embroidery hoop at the time I was changing the drum wrap from back to the red 'pre Strike' wrap.



As you can see from the images above, you could do this fulcrum mod on the standard pads. Just make the blocks shorter.. For the record, on my 12" pads the block is 22mm (0.86"). On my 10" pads the wood blocks are 37mm (1.45")..  You could take 10mm of either of these for a standard pad. You just need to measure it up as you go.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:22:43 AM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: DM10X Pad Upgrade (again) 2017
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2017, 01:34:18 AM »

Once the epoxy was dry I painted the mounts for the 10" pads.



Painting them black really helps hide base and it's bits.



The new rubber with it's curious perspex backing is working a treat.  Almost too good.

Sensitivity was around 8 to 10.. Too hot.

I decided to add a 100k resistor to the mix on the head piezo.



I knew I had some of these somewhere.

I'll not bore you with shots of resistors soldered onto the RED cable of the head piezo.

Suffice to say all the pads have sensitivity around 32 for some pads and to 44 for others.

Perfect.