Advice for converting a snare

[OmniFace]

Hola!

Hola! I'm pretty new here.  Actually, I'm not even a drummer...  I'm the guitarist in my band but I'm a tech geek so...

I'd like to convert an acoustic kit to an electronic kit for my drummer to use.  We already use a Roland TD3 kit, but I'd like to have a kit that looks real.

I'm thinking of converting this snare as a test before buying a used kit and doing the rest.

http://drums-percussion.musiciansfriend.com/product/Sound-Percussion-Piccolo-Snare-Drum?sku=502556

1) I am planning on purchasing an Alesis DM10 in a few weeks.  With that in mind, there's been mixed discussion about which trigger type is better to use...

Reflector
Or
Foam Cone

It seems like the Foam cone would be easier to make overall especially since I can buy premade piezo and cones for like $8 a piece from a guy on the vdrum forum.  However, I get the impression it doesn't track as well with the DM10 from some people.  Is the general consensus that Reflector is better for this module?

Since this is a 13" head, which one will have better performance out to the edges of the drum?

2) Assuming I go with Reflector, I like the idea of using a baking or pie pan for the "container" to house the electronics.  The snare I have in mind is a 13" snare.  If I use the pan method should I be trying to have the drum hoop sit on top of the pan edges? Or do I have the pan fit withing the circumference of the drum and put the hoop on the drum edge like it normally would, then use a support system to keep the pan in place under the head?

Would it be better to make a simple platform to bolt into the drum then put the foam on top?  Otherwise I imagine the pan edges would risk touching the head if the foam on top wasn't thick enough.

3) What foam/plate combination is best?  My drummer hits pretty hard but I'd like to be able to track nuances pretty well to take advantage of the DM10's sampling.  The polyfil and mylar seemed to work well for Hellfire but what characteristics to different plates make?

If a plate is thin or flexible vs hard or thick what impact does this have on the sensitivity and the "feel" of the drum?

Am I right that hard means fewer hotspots but a more rigid playing surface?

4) How far down from the head should the piezo element actually sit?  HOw much foam should there really be on top?  Should it be packed pretty tight or does it just barely need to touch the head?

5) Does anyone have good recommendations to make the drum as quiet as possible?  I'm planning on a mesh head, but I was wondering if filling in the back of the drum with foam would help dampen it any more?

Let me know!

[OmniFace]

lol 14 reads but no replies...

Alright, I've read that the difference between cone and plate is that the plate will give a more even playing surface, but may suffer sensitivity, while the cone will give more sensitivity but may have hot spots.

Sound about right?



Through my reading I also discovered I need to talk about piezo size itself.  Large piezo's have more output apparently.  So how do I determine what is best for the DM10 and what are the pros/cons of different sizes of piezos?

[Hellfire]

lol 14 reads but no replies...

Alright, I've read that the difference between cone and plate is that the plate will give a more even playing surface, but may suffer sensitivity, while the cone will give more sensitivity but may have hot spots.

Sound about right?



Through my reading I also discovered I need to talk about piezo size itself.  Large piezo's have more output apparently.  So how do I determine what is best for the DM10 and what are the pros/cons of different sizes of piezos?

Sorry, I never responded on this topic but to be honest I've covered it so much over the last few years that I typically don't answer them anymore.

Plate vs. Cone. The age old question.

It come down to which module you are using. If it is Roland stick to the cone. If it is Alesis or Yamaha stick to the plate. Sensitivity should not suffer if you remember that rule and build the drum correctly. Everything a DIY'er does to make his/her trigger effects how it plays. I love it when people say, "plate triggers aren't as sensitive". Chances are it is because they used too thick of a foam or the wrong density of foam with too thick of a plate. Using a heavy reflector with low density foam with trigger like crap. It is a give and take thing. A lot of times one needs to experiment to get the feel they are looking for.

Basically, there is no magic formula that works perfect for all modules. I hope that helps.

[OmniFace]

That does thank you.

I know you've covered it but I don't see any definitive answers in the posts I've read. 

So with the plate what foam density do people prefer?  and the plate hardness?  Your polyfil and mylar test seemed promising but would that work on a large 13 snare?  How about big floor toms?

What size piezo does the Alesis dm10 need?  Do I need a larger one to work with larger drums heads to catch the edges?

[Hellfire]

That does thank you.

No problem.

I know you've covered it but I don't see any definitive answers in the posts I've read. 

That's because too many people get there info form one site (i.e.. vdrums.com) where most of the users use Roland modules (go figure). People who own other modules (like alesis or yamaha) try to build based on those directions and they don't understand why their triggers don't work that great. They then assume that it is their module and go and buy a used (i.e.. old) Roland module (TD-3,6,8,10). The entire time not realizing that vdrums.com is named after the Roland product with the same name "V-drums". For some odd reason people don't get the reference. They think Vdrums is a generic term for electronic drums when it is not (that word would be edrums  ). Unfortunetly, the reverse is then true. People with a Roland module hear about an older technology called refection plate that they read about were a guy DIY'ed his own triggers and the guy said they worked great. The build some and plug it into their Roland module and realize that their new trigger suffers with sensitivity issue. They then go back on the forum to declare that reflection plate triggers suck and the cone is better.

So with the plate what foam density do people prefer?  and the plate hardness?  Your polyfil and mylar test seemed promising but would that work on a large 13 snare?  How about big floor toms?

One thing to keep in mind. You will never get an electronic drum trigger to feel 100% like an acoustic drum. You can get close but it will either be too bouncy (i.e. mesh) or feel like a heavily dampened acoustic drum (reflection plates). If you are using plexiglass or hardboard (the stuff used for peg boards but without the holes) you might want to consider neopren foam rubber at least 1/4" - 1/2" thick on top of the plate just under the drum head. If you use a flexable sheet metal that you can get at the hardware store, use the sandwich technique. Use high density foam (sometimes has a green or blueish color to it) that you get at a craft store. That would go on top of the plate and use the standard white (or off white) low density foam under the plate.

Almost forgot, no I never tried the mylar/ployfil on larger drums. You can try if you want and report back.

What size piezo does the Alesis dm10 need?  Do I need a larger one to work with larger drums heads to catch the edges?

No, the same size piezo elements should work all around. The problem with using large ones on bigger drums is you tend to get a hot spotting problem. Use a 20mm piezo, that should do the trick if you are using an Alesis module.

BTW, I think I'm done answering these questions for good. If anyone else asks, I will just direct them here. 

[Burtmeister]

2) Assuming I go with Reflector, I like the idea of using a baking or pie pan for the "container" to house the electronics.  The snare I have in mind is a 13" snare.  If I use the pan method should I be trying to have the drum hoop sit on top of the pan edges? Or do I have the pan fit withing the circumference of the drum and put the hoop on the drum edge like it normally would, then use a support system to keep the pan in place under the head?

Would it be better to make a simple platform to bolt into the drum then put the foam on top?  Otherwise I imagine the pan edges would risk touching the head if the foam on top wasn't thick enough.

3) What foam/plate combination is best?  My drummer hits pretty hard but I'd like to be able to track nuances pretty well to take advantage of the DM10's sampling.  The polyfil and mylar seemed to work well for Hellfire but what characteristics to different plates make?

4) How far down from the head should the piezo element actually sit?  HOw much foam should there really be on top?  Should it be packed pretty tight or does it just barely need to touch the head?

5) Does anyone have good recommendations to make the drum as quiet as possible?  I'm planning on a mesh head, but I was wondering if filling in the back of the drum with foam would help dampen it any more?

I can help a little bit here as I recently converted a 14" acoustic snare myself using the reflection plate with a subresonator method.

2) I used the baking pan method. If you follow the information over at vdrums.com there are links to find the pans that fits the drums. Lots of good info in that post. The edge of the pan sits on the bearing edge of the drum, but it does fit within the circumference of the drum hoop. On mine It stuck up above the shell about 3/16" so the mesh head made contact with the pan edge rather than the shell's edge. The link to the vdrum post is http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56650

3 and 4) I have not tried the mylar/poly fill myself. I ended up making mine with the high density foam that I bought at a sewing/craft supplies store. Mine is green and was supposed to be used for chair cushions or something. For my reflection plate I used a cheap pizza pan cut down to size with a cd as my subresonator plate, which I have a 28mm piezo attached to. So from the top down I have one inch of the high density foam, a reflection plate, another inch of the high density foam, and 2 sheets of 1/16" craft foam on the very bottom, inside cake pan. The 2 sheets of craft foam were basically to push everything up so the  top foam piece made contact with the mesh head. Before the head was put on, the top piece of foam was about 1/8" above the cake pan edge. I also attached a second piezo to the very bottom of the cake pan to give me my 2nd zone.

5) I did pack the back of my drum with leftover foam just to deaden any noise transferred down through the cake pan.

With my setup I don't have a definite hot spot, but it does gradually get more sensitive towards the center of the drum head. But I do I get ghost notes and good sensitivity across the whole head. I hope that helps.

[OmniFace]

Excellent Burt!  I really appreciate sharing that with me as it's so similar to what I'm about to do.


Hellfire-As an FYI, to avoid typing this over and over, perhaps everyone could pitch in to make a DIY PDF and give it a sticky in the forum?  Then you could encase all the good info in one easily linkable document.

I'd be happy to write it up even, I'd just need all the details on why things work better than others, recommended materials, differences that occur because of different materials etc.

Let me know! 

[Hellfire]

Excellent Burt!  I really appreciate sharing that with me as it's so similar to what I'm about to do.


Hellfire-As an FYI, to avoid typing this over and over, perhaps everyone could pitch in to make a DIY PDF and give it a sticky in the forum?  Then you could encase all the good info in one easily linkable document.

I'd be happy to write it up even, I'd just need all the details on why things work better than others, recommended materials, differences that occur because of different materials etc.

Let me know! 

The pdf thing sounds good to me. I will put it up under a sticky when you guys get it done. Thanks for the suggestion.

[OmniFace]

Cool.  I'll start writing it up soon.  I've been going through the "drop-in dual zone trigger collaboration" on v-drums for a while and have learned a lot.

[Hellfire]

Cool.  I'll start writing it up soon.  I've been going through the "drop-in dual zone trigger collaboration" on v-drums for a while and have learned a lot.

Cool, keep in mind that collaboration for any method of triggering is all about which module (model and brand) you are using. I look forward to seeing your progress.