Author Topic: Dual zone hats on the dm10  (Read 6752 times)

Dual zone hats on the dm10
« on: March 07, 2011, 07:27:15 PM »
Ok guys I'm in the market for the dm10 studio, and the only thing that is really holding me back is the lack of dual zone hats. I know this question has been asked a gazillion times, and i have been searching the internet for a solution and haven't seen one worth the time yet. so I'm not gonna ask the why won't the cy 5 and so one work with dm 10. But my question is if I take a pd8 pad,which I believe is a pp style pad put a y splitter in the pad run the edge trigger the the traditional hats input. And the head input to into another y input from a Tom making making the head of the pd8 trigger the Tom rim input and change that sound of that to a sound of a hi hat top tap sound.( sorry for the lack of words describing the top of the hats) and therefore  creating a single zone Tom and a dual zone hat. Do you think this will work with out any crazy xtalk issues. I own a dm5 also can I do anything with that 12 single zone inputs thanks thanks thanks guys for any and all responses


Ps I promise I have searched and searched for this setup hahaha

Here,vdrums,hellfire google,and you tube

And btw great forum I have got loads of info from u guys

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 08:15:23 AM »
Here is a potential solution... You will need a dual zone cymbal.  Take a TRS Female to TS Mono adapter, connect 1 zone to the hihat input of the DM10 (this is a mono input anyway).  Connect the other zone to another input on the DM10 and assign an additional sound.

The trouble you may have is finding the adapter or cables.  These connections would go in reverse of what you normally would see.  You may have to connect a short TRS cable to the hihat, then connect the adapter, then connect additional cables.

Here is what I would use: TRS Male to Male (short, maybe 3-6 feet), TRS Female to TS Mono Male Y adapter, TS or TRS Headphone extension cables.  Once you make the split from TRS to TS, it shouldn't matter if you use a TRS cable after the split... the cable is just carrying electrons.
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 08:44:04 AM »
Thats pretty much exactly what i was thinking. But i was under the impression that all E-cymbals are piezo/switch, which will not work friendly with most Alesis. And the Roland pd8 pads are piezo/peizo. so really i dont see why this cant work my main concern is un-manageable cross talk. hahaha im waiting for Hellfire to chime in and tell me why this is not going to work haha.

Online Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 09:56:25 AM »
Thats pretty much exactly what i was thinking. But i was under the impression that all E-cymbals are piezo/switch, which will not work friendly with most Alesis. And the Roland pd8 pads are piezo/peizo. so really i dont see why this cant work my main concern is un-manageable cross talk. hahaha im waiting for Hellfire to chime in and tell me why this is not going to work haha.
You ask and you shall receive... ;D
It will not work because a Roland PD8 is a piezo/switch pad. I own one. ;) One other issue you are going to have and that is controlling the open and closed action of the edge zone. The DM10's hi-hat control pedal is only programed to control the one zone, the bow. Your edge zone would be a fixed zone just like any other drum trigger on the kit. I hope that helps.

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 10:17:00 AM »
Well, I did a little research and found 4 cymbals you could possibly use (one you have to modify).

Simmons SDP12CP has a dual zone bell/bow
Pintech ZB2 has a dual zone bell/bow

If the pedal controls the the bow, you can connect the bell to another input on module.  Please correct me if I'm wrong here... doesn't the DM10 module allow you to specify switch or piezo? If you have both triggers connected to different inputs, would you be able to control the cross talk?

As for the third option - find a used Surge ride and use as is, or cut it down to a smaller size.  The three zone has two separate inputs.  I think you could make this work with this cymbal.

Fourth option - Kit-Toys TD-VR dual piezo/dual zone ride.  This may still be a prototype, but contacting the guy making these might be worth it.  He can be found on the UK ebay site.
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 10:25:10 AM »
Ok that being said are there any dual zone dual piezo pads, cymbals would look nicer but at this point it doesn't matter. and if so, let's say I have a blah blah blah dual piezo pad would it still matter which mono input went in to the actual hi hat input, seeing they would both be the same in a sense both Piezo. So the hi hat would get it's velocity and signal and do what it does normally. 

Thanks for all replies


EDIT**** just saw ur suggestions jerm that dual piezo might be just what I am looking for

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 03:26:40 PM »
Yes, it does matter which input is used, even with the dual piezo.  Make sure you can identify which trigger is the bow/edge vs. bell.  You want to make sure the bow/edge is used for the hihat input.

Check the pintech and simmons units out before you buy.  I could not find the specs to see if they were piezo/switch or piezo/piezo.

I want to find a used ride myself... and maybe even more used surge cymbals to try cutting one down - extra hats and splash!  Yep, I have a lathe...
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Online Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 04:13:19 PM »
Maybe you guys didn't see what I posted above, I'll try again:

One other issue you are going to have and that is controlling the open and closed action of the edge zone. The DM10's hi-hat control pedal is only programed to control the one zone, the bow. Your edge zone would be a fixed zone just like any other drum trigger on the kit. I hope that helps.

Also, keep in mind the hi-hat controller pedal will only control what is plugged into the hi-hat trigger input. It will not control any other trigger on the kit. To get dual zone with a DM10 you have to use a Trigger I/O with it and you will loose your heel splash. Here is a link to that info:

DM10 Dual Zone Hi Hat w/ Trigger iO?

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 04:20:17 PM »
Nope, I saw it... that's why I recommended a bow/edge and bell dual zone type of cymbal.  Keep the bow on the hihat and use the bell on a different input.

To me, the exact set up described would work for my purposes.  I'm not sure what else is trying to be accomplished by Bos.
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Online Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 04:26:46 PM »
Nope, I saw it... that's why I recommended a bow/edge and bell dual zone type of cymbal.  Keep the bow on the hihat and use the bell on a different input.

To me, the exact set up described would work for my purposes.  I'm not sure what else is trying to be accomplished by Bos.
That's fine, but what sounds are you assigning to this new dual zone hi-hat? Are you just assigning a different hi-hat sound to the other zone? If you are, then you need to be mind full of what the extra zone on the hi-hat trigger is plugged into. If you plug your second hi-hat zone into the rim trigger part of an input, you will get an open hi-hat sound. If you plug your second hi-hat zone into the head trigger part of an input, you will get an closed hi-hat sound. You get no control over this extra zone via the hi-hat control pedal. So I'm not sure what good that does.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 04:29:13 PM by Hellfire »

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 05:46:48 PM »
Hey guys thanks for all the replies, and yes hellfire i am only assigning another hat sound. So the the edge would sound as if u hit a closed tight hat and the top/bow would sound like hitting the top of the hats with only the heads of your stick. If that makes sense (sorry for the lack of my drummers vocab) so really controlling the bow sound with the foot isnt really a big concern kinda like choking the bell of a ride pointless pretty much. sorry if this doesnt make sense i feel like jerm has the right idea. I wouldnt mind getting the trig IO but i do have a dm5 i plan on using for more single zone pads china,splash blah blah blah so i think maybe cutting down a three zone dmpad might do the trick. seeing there piezo piezo pads. Once again thanks for all the talk.

Also would it be possible to cut the dmpad down with it having a choke don't care about the choke just don't want to mess the triggers up
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 06:17:46 PM by Bos kaine »

Online Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 07:12:29 PM »
Hey guys thanks for all the replies, and yes hellfire i am only assigning another hat sound. So the the edge would sound as if u hit a closed tight hat and the top/bow would sound like hitting the top of the hats with only the heads of your stick. If that makes sense (sorry for the lack of my drummers vocab) so really controlling the bow sound with the foot isnt really a big concern kinda like choking the bell of a ride pointless pretty much. sorry if this doesnt make sense i feel like jerm has the right idea. I wouldnt mind getting the trig IO but i do have a dm5 i plan on using for more single zone pads china,splash blah blah blah so i think maybe cutting down a three zone dmpad might do the trick. seeing there piezo piezo pads. Once again thanks for all the talk.

Also would it be possible to cut the dmpad down with it having a choke don't care about the choke just don't want to mess the triggers up
I can honestly say I'm confused at what you are trying to accomplish.

Are you trying to designate a dual zone trigger for a hi-hat and not use the hi-hat controller at all?

Or are you using the hi-hat controller for one of the zones, but not the other?

Do the sounds of the two zones need to cancel each other out? In other words, do you want both zones to trigger at the same time? If not you will need to set up a mute group.

Maybe I just need to wait and see what you come up with. :)

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 09:31:16 PM »
Ok Little explanation on what I would like to accomplish.  I would like to create a hi hat that makes a sound when hit on the edge and the bow/bell.  2 sound when the hi hat is closed and 2 when it open obviously the bell would be the same sound weather open or closed. But what I would like to accomplish is when I depress my foot down on the pedal and hit the edge I want it to sound as I am playing a closed hat on the edge and when I hit the bow/bell I want it to sound as if I was playing the top of the hats while there closed. I hope I am making sense.

So basically like u said I only need the controller to Control one zone preferably the edge. Now I don't know much about mute groups but it would be nice if I was playing the bell/bow that the edge would be going off can u control that thru mute groups. But I guess my first concern is trying to make u guys see my vision Hahahahaha.


PS the edge would make a open hats sound when my foot of the pedal and I guess the bell/bow would still make that closed top hat sound 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 09:41:11 PM by Bos kaine »

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2011, 08:56:44 AM »
If I understand what you are describing, you will not be able to do this using an alesis realhat pedal or DM10.  You could, in theory put multiple components together to get what you are after.

First, let me clarify something - I have not seen a e-hihat with edge/bow/bell zones.  It's typically bow/bell only for a designed hihat.  There are other cymbals that might give you edge/bow, or edge&bow/bell, but not all three - unless you used a 3 zone ride cut down.

Having said that, you would need a secondary hihat pedal or switch and a trigger i/o, or possibly another module to do what you need.  The DM10 would control the edge/bow hat (open/closed) and the trigger i/o would have the secondary pedal or switch for the bell.

It may be possible to mechanically connect the pedals, or possibly install a switch underneath the hihat pedal, so when you press the pedal down, it closes the switch.  This would require a momentary switch - releasing the pedal releases the switch.  Otherwise, you would have to press the pedal down again to trigger the switch again.

From what I can tell, you are looking to get 4 different sounds from your hihat, depending on the zone and pedal position.
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2011, 10:16:07 AM »
I want three zones total, so a dual piezo dual zone pad would suffice. I want the bell or top of that hats to make the sound of the top of the hats, wether opened or closed. Don't need the bell to make a different sound if it open or closed. And then the edge but that sound would change depending on pedal position so the edge would make the sound of a open and closed hat depending on pedal position and the bell would be the same sound no matter what. seeing it's not even connected to the hat input. Hope this is starting to make since
Haha I think this is going to be the day I commit and buy


So my three zones

Would be

Open hat first zone

Closed hat second zone  ( I know those aren't technically two different zones)

And bell would be third zone same sound no matter where the pedal is at
 

Offline Yankee

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2011, 10:48:34 AM »
Given the last explanation, I got pretty lost in the middle there too! :) , I think Jermdog had it right early on.

Since you only need the open/close of the edge, I'd split the TRS coming out of the new dual zone cymbal to two mono TS cables. I'd send the edge TS cable to the Hihat jack and then the bell/bow TS cable to an open jack on the module and assign it whatever closed hihat bell/bow type sound you want.

Just to restate what Hellfire explained, you can only control 1 trigger (zone) with the hihat controller. Since this is all you're seeking it should be doable.

...Yankee
E-Kits: Alesis DM10 Studio, Alesis DM5, Alesis DM6 w/ DIY Mesh Conversion's
A-Kits: Gretsch Catalina Maple 6pc Cherry Red; 64 Slingerland 4pc Gold Sparkle

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »
Sorry i suck with words hahah. But yankee just hit the nail on the head thats exactly what i want to do. Thanks for all the help everyone. I just bought a dm10 studio for $853.00 with a midi cable from musicians friend. and i have a dm5 and a bunch of crap pads i hope to incorporate also

Offline Guinness

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2011, 12:11:24 PM »
I think i understand.  You basically want to assign a hh sound to another trigger.  If that trigger is on the same pad, you will have crosstalk issues.  The dual zone pads on the dm10 only registers one trigger at a time.  I can't get past how the dm10 would know you're hitting the "bell" and not the "edge".  The would both trigger, imo.
 
Also...  I'm not sure....  can you assign a "closed" hh to a pad with the DM10?

Offline Jermdog

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2011, 03:10:36 PM »
I tried finding a closed hihat sound on the DM10, but couldn't.  The only way you can get one using only the DM10 is to not use the hihat pedal (it would stay closed, essentially.

You can do this if you have a trigger i/o, which I have played with in my current set up.  If you use the hihat input on the trigger i/o (and it's connected via midi to the DM10), it will give you a closed hihat sound as long as you don't have a pedal attached to the trigger i/o.

I look at it the same way I would looking at a 2 zone tom.  Yes, you may have some cross talk issues.  But the rim and head are 2 zones, with 2 sounds assigned to them.  A 2 zone cymbal (bell/bow) should work the same way.  The Alesis surge ride does this pretty well - I don't have a cross talk issue with the bell/bow when I strike either one.

Guinness - your comment about the DM10 registering one trigger at a time may very well help the DM10 register the correct sound depending on which zone is triggered "harder".  However, in my experience, the DM10 can register multiple trigger events on the same input.  I used "Y" cables between toms and cymbals prior to getting my trigger i/o and the DM10 picked up both triggers.  There may be a mono/poly setting that could help with this as well, but I'm not sure.
Strike Pro, Dm10, Zildjian Gen 16 hats, xhats and garbage cymbals, Kit Toys chinas, crash and splashes, jam dock, mixer, custom 13" tom, alesis, drum workshop and various hardware.

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2011, 11:58:27 PM »
I am a superior drummer user so I mostly will be on that also can I turn the the triple zone ride into a crash with choke so I would have two crashes with chokes and then get another dm triple zone pad and make a dual zone ride no choke by splitting the trigger or essentially merging both trigger into one input also from my understanding he'll fire said I could set up mute groups?? With any issues like crazy xtalk my set will be here Monday right now I'm on a super budget diy dm5

Offline Guinness

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2011, 07:41:43 PM »

Guinness - your comment about the DM10 registering one trigger at a time may very well help the DM10 register the correct sound depending on which zone is triggered "harder".  However, in my experience, the DM10 can register multiple trigger events on the same input.  I used "Y" cables between toms and cymbals prior to getting my trigger i/o and the DM10 picked up both triggers.  There may be a mono/poly setting that could help with this as well, but I'm not sure.

I don't know what the trigger i|o does to the equation, but if using just the dm10, it will not trigger two items on the same TRS jack at the same time.  I've tried.
 
But perhaps, as you mentioned, there's a mono/poly setting or something that disengages this.
 

Online Hellfire

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2011, 08:12:48 PM »
Guinness - your comment about the DM10 registering one trigger at a time may very well help the DM10 register the correct sound depending on which zone is triggered "harder".  However, in my experience, the DM10 can register multiple trigger events on the same input.  I used "Y" cables between toms and cymbals prior to getting my trigger i/o and the DM10 picked up both triggers.  There may be a mono/poly setting that could help with this as well, but I'm not sure.
About two weeks ago I figured out how to get adjacent zones (i.e. head and rim) on the same input to trigger at the same time. The trick is to set "Retrigger" on the head to "0" and set "Zonetalk" on the Rim to "0" as well. That should do the trick. Keep in mind that putting the Retrigger down that low can sometime be an issue. Make sure you have crosstalk down to a minimum on your kit to do this trick.

My retrigger settings were always set at 2 and I never thought of turning it down. Because of that, I could never get both zones to trigger at the same time.

The head and rim are always tied together. That is why the "Threshold" and "ReTrigger" options is only shown on the head parameters list and not on the Rim list. I'm not quite sure why Alesis did this, but I'm sure they had a reason.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 08:15:47 PM by Hellfire »

Offline vtdrummer

Re: Dual zone hats on the dm10
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2011, 08:24:21 PM »
Very cool!  Thanks Hellfire, I'll have to try this.  I was trying to do this last weekend, but never got it... of course, I didn't try THAT!
DM10 Studio 2011 w/Surge Cymbals added, BB Mesh head conversion w/rubber muffs at bottom, one 12" A-E pad, Simmons DA200S, sometimes using 2 satellite speakers... Simmons SDMP-1 Multi-pad.
See my DIY 12" Acoustic to E-Drum project post here: http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=1227