Author Topic: Pads trigging on stage  (Read 1723 times)

Offline Dobly

Pads trigging on stage
« on: May 20, 2017, 01:47:39 AM »
Until recently I had a small issue where the snare and tom pads would trigger by themselves when on stage and when the band is pumping and loud.

Threshold when some way to fix the issue at the expense of dynamic playability on the pads. But threshhold is NOT the issue.

When I recently modded my 12" pads I removed all of the foam and stuff. The pads have never felt so good.

http://www.alesisdrummer.com/index.php?topic=7136.0

Last night on stage the issue was worse than ever. But what stuck me as odd was it did not happen in every song. 4 songs would be fine, then the next song was a nightmare of misfired pads. 

It was certain notes at volume. I got a theory which I could not wait to try...

This afternoon I ran a test. I ran a synth into my 1000w Behringer B115D speak , positioned it right next to one of my pad and turned it up to "paint stripping" loud.

I watched the DM10 modules as i moved chromatically up the keys.. When I hit C4 I could see the pad was triggering. But it was NOT the head triggering. It was the RIM.

I put my hand under the pad and I could feel the plastic base, directly under the rim piezo vibrating with the C4 note coming coming loud and clear from the amp.

I put my hand over the base and bingo. The triggering of the rim stopped. Removed my hand and it returned.

Different pads might trigger to different notes. But that is not the point here.

Take one of you DM10 pads and tap the middle of the base. Hear it has a slight ring to it? That is the issue. The base is vibrating with a certain note. When that note is played on stage, it triggers.

I've not worked out yet how I am going to dampen it. But I am going to do something.

Offline rhysT

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2017, 08:06:27 AM »
If putting some foam back into the pads doesn't help, maybe try moving the rim sensor closer towards your hitting edge and lower its sensitivity. Also then try attaching a damper near the pad base center.

Otherwise perhaps the keyboardist could avoid playing C4 or just turn down the freakin' volume!   ;) 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 09:41:19 AM by rhysT »

Offline korakios

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2017, 08:40:15 AM »
Since you modded the pads ,you can place the rim piezo on the rim shell . The disadvantage would be uneven velocity but if you hit the rim always on certain position it wouldn't be much noticeable.
Another option would be placing some material on the center of the bottom ,on the outerside of the pad.

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2017, 06:06:44 PM »
If putting some foam back into the pads doesn't help, maybe try moving the rim sensor closer towards your hitting edge and lower its sensitivity. Also then try attaching a damper near the pad base center.


All good ideas. I was thinking I could glue circle of rubber in the inside around the piezo. Moving the peizo nearer the edge might work too. A little bit of both might solve the issue. It was horrible in some of the songs the other night. 


Otherwise perhaps the keyboardist could avoid playing C4 or just turn down the freakin' volume!   ;)

WHAT!!! Turn it down? Outrageous suggestion.  ;)

Seriously but the volume I run the kit on stage is to match the real Hats and Ride. No louder or softer. It just has to be balanced. The rest of the guys run their stuff to match the volume of the drums. It's a little raw but it rocks along quite nicely.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 09:49:02 PM by Dobly »

Offline Hellfire

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2017, 10:02:01 PM »
Sorry I'm a little late to the game here.

This is an issue that's been around since the early days of edrums. Have you ever wondered why original Simmons drums were so heavy?

Moving the piezo will have the least effect with trying to resolve the issue. You need to change the mass of the drum. That is the only way to fix the issue. Using pieces of rubber mat would be a good place to start. The heavier the rubber the better.

This is the dirty little secret about modern edrums. Most mesh head edrums are terrible with on stage noise. Sure they can be used, but notice that when a popular band uses any kind of electronic drum pad regularly, they tend to use a small rubber pad (like Dauz) or a solid surface (rubber pad) think Pearl ePro Live stuff. That's because you tend to have zero problems with false triggering do to resinating sound. You either have to go small or go massive.

Offline rhysT

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2017, 08:13:48 AM »
You need to change the mass of the drum. That is the only way to fix the issue. Using pieces of rubber mat would be a good place to start. The heavier the rubber the better.

Dobly, check out these anti-vibration pads (https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977) at your hardware store. Maybe just move the rim piezo enough to attach the rubber block centrally inside the base.
Fwiw, I've added one of these rubber squares under each post of my rack to avoid complaints from the neighbours.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:20:29 AM by rhysT »

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 07:42:15 PM »
You need to change the mass of the drum. That is the only way to fix the issue. Using pieces of rubber mat would be a good place to start. The heavier the rubber the better.

Dobly, check out these anti-vibration pads (https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977) at your hardware store. Maybe just move the rim piezo enough to attach the rubber block centrally inside the base.

It will pain me to to have to do this. It felt so good removing all the foam, metal and guff from pads. They are so clean and play much like an acoustics drum now with different tensions on each.

As nice as that is, the pads are unplayable now with this issue. So I'll have to do something. The 12" pads have a void on the bottom. Either I put something there, or inside the pad. I'll try these anti-vibration pads (thanks RhysT) inside the drum.

I was thinking about the show the other night and remembered one song in particular that was a nightmare of false triggering. I messages the band guitar player and ask what key we do that song in.

What do you know? It is in C.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 09:48:08 PM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2017, 10:20:44 PM »
Furthermore I can see the value in moving the peizo out to near the edge. Apart from it responding better to rim hits near that edge, it will be out of the center where the vibration on the base is most pronounced.

These vibration pads will need to be very securely attached. If one corner is loose it may will cause double hits. I'll try a full covering of double sided tape first. If that fails i glue them. I'd rather not glue them. The tape is relatively easy to get off.

Offline JimmyB

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2017, 10:50:39 PM »
Dynamat.com
JimmyB

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2017, 11:34:18 PM »
Thanks Jimmy.. I'll keep that in mind. I just went at a lunch time and got these on the suggestion of rhysT.



I could not get the 50 x 50 ones so I opted for the 100 x 100. They must be twice as good eh?

I'll not get to test any of this till the weekend as I need to make a hell of a racket. Not good on a week night in the burbs I live in.

 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 06:55:59 PM by Dobly »

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 08:11:55 AM »
Tonight I had major success modding my 10" pads with the fulcrum method from user 'ignotus'.

http://www.alesisdrummer.com/index.php?topic=7136.0

Please with how that turned out I was keen to mod my 12" pads the same way. The 12" pads however had much more work to be done.

First I removed the rim piezo. This was hard work.



It was not just glued on, it had some sticky material under it.

It left a darn mess.

I used goo remover to get the base clean, but material was stuck to the bottom of the piezo.

This took about 20 minutes to slowly and carefully scrap off.



The best place for this piezo would be close to me, as that is the side of the floor tom pad that I play on if playing the rim.

The problem is that the lead on this piezo was not long enough to reach the other side.
Also I did not want the wires to run across the base. So i began cutting a groove in the ribs around to the other side to run the wires in.



All soldered up and ready to rock.



This did not work. More later
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:04:21 PM by Dobly »

Offline Hellfire

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 10:08:38 AM »
Cool conversion!

That foam matt foam is called EVA foam. It is a type of foam rubber. As long as you do not hit directly on top of it, you should be fine. Normally I tell people to stay away from EVA foam rubber, but only if you are hitting on top of it. EVA is actually quite bad and compresses quickly over time to repeated hits. I don't know if you remember, but the original DM10 drum triggers had an EVA foam pad (about 1/8 inch thick) on top of the metal plate. They don't stand up well to moderate use (mine went bad in about a month). That is the main reason I modified my DM10 Pro Kit pads at the time.

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2017, 06:31:39 PM »
Cool conversion!

Thanks Hellfire..

That foam matt foam is called EVA foam. It is a type of foam rubber. As long as you do not hit directly on top of it, you should be fine. Normally I tell people to stay away from EVA foam rubber, but only if you are hitting on top of it. EVA is actually quite bad and compresses quickly over time to repeated hits

The other day I bought some EVA foam and tried it. It was terrible. Almost gum like. If you squished it up it did not respond. This floor mat foam while it might be EVA technically, it seems little more rigid. (you need to be able to walk on it). When I squish it down it springs back way better than the EVA I bought the other day. I think it will be fine they way i have used it.

That said, now that the conversion is done, it is trivial and simple to change out the foam. 

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 10:53:07 PM »
mmmm.. just wondering, now that I have moved the rim piezo out to edge, it is not in the middle of that flat resonate base. Maybe this alone will fix the mis triggering issue.  Or maybe the increase in sensitivity by having it out there will balance it out and I'll be back at square 1.

I'll test it on the weekend.

Offline Dobly

Re: Pads trigging on stage
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 06:05:24 AM »
With an aim to reduce the resonance of on the base of pad I installed some anti-vibration rubber squares to my 12" pads..

Here is how that went.

First I cut a square of paper and made some marks where the bolts would go.



And used it as a guide for drilling the holes. Small holes first..



Note: the plastic in the base here is quite thick. Like around 5mm thick.

Once I had the bigger holes drilled I added some double sided tape to the back of the vibration pad.

And bolted them on the INSIDE of my 12" pads. (error)


Why did I do all 3 of them before working out this would not work? Even with my higher shells I would have to keep my heads super tight to avoid hitting this..

I moved them all to the underside of the pads.



I think it looks good. Not that they will be that visible anyway.
(FYI) The plastic at the base on these pads is very think. Around 5mm.

Once I had done that I thought why not put the base piezo back in the middle



No. This did not work. The sensitivity was way down, which was nice. BUT it it's like you need to hit it with a certain force to get a 100% hit from it. There was no in between. Nothing, nothing, nothing 100%  The base piezo will not stay here. I have a plan for that.  When I work it out i'll add it the PAD mod thread I started.

As for the vibration pads. I have not tested them yet. But I can tell already just by tapping the base, it is much deader now.




« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 06:53:37 PM by Dobly »